My request for the present is this: can you improve on this table?
Your limits are this: you can't include skins that alter or adjust the walls; you can't add aesthetic features, items or elements that are semi-permanent; you can't add monsters; and you can't create a dead end. A room/chamber might be a dead end and a hallway might actually turn out to be a dead end, but these things are determined by other tables. This is strictly about the space behind the door. The door has to go somewhere.
I'm certain that Gygax deliberately left stairs out as an option. His conception was that stairs would always mean the dungeon progressed a level in danger, so his generation made them annoyingly rare, so that a party wouldn't quickly find itself facing monsters out of their capability. I don't have any problems with a "first-level dungeon" spanning several physical levels. I feel the cut-off between one level and another ought to be based on something less feature-driven.
My reason for the exercise is merely this: to make the reader think. We see these massive megadungeons depicted everywhere, but the reader will note they are created of the same functional patterns, like the space beyond the door, again and again. I'm asking the reader to deal with one small facet of the dungeon creation machine, to see if it can't be improved upon. Like examining a car's head gasket, to see if it can be made more durable.
I'll take a stab at it when I'm back at a proper computer; the first thing I'd suggest, however, is a table based on the road you're in. For example, if you're in a corridor, roll on Table A. If you're in a room, roll on Table B. Tables A and B would be weighted to promote (generally) a standard pattern of room --> corridor --> room --> corridor, etc.
ReplyDeleteThe reason for this is physics: a dungeon needs thicker walls in between spaces to hold the weight above it. Certainly, we can include supports (arches, cross beams, etc), but I see that as an aesthetic choice that would allow for different tables.
Hadn't thought about the vertical change, though. I'll have to add that in.
There IS a table in the generator if you're in a corridor. There IS a table in the generator if you're in a room. We're not talking about those situations. We're talking about this situation, specifically ~ what is on the other side of a DOOR.
ReplyDeleteOn a initial read of the table, my thought is that there are too many passages, and an actual room/chamber is rare. However, looking at the percentages, there's a 50-50 split between the next portion being a passage or a room/chamber.
ReplyDeleteAlexis, can you describe how the 8-9 and 10 results work? I'm guessing the 30ft hole is not a pit-trap, and that you'd roll normally for the next section of the dungeon after it? With regards to the shaft leading up, is that something that is intended for creatures to move through, or could it just be for air?
(These tables were updated in the 5th Edition DM's Guide. Would it be useful to look at the choices that were made there?)
The "hole" would be a shaft as wide as the door. It would need another table I haven't made, indicating whether or not it would have a rope ladder, a rope and rungs for climbing, a rough surface that could be descended by climbing or a dangerous smooth shaft without any provided method for descent. Most likely I would have it end in a 10 ft. square rough hewn cave, with a roll to see what the exits were.
ReplyDeleteThe "shaft" would be primarily for air and heat exhaust. It would be a rough-hewn, perhaps semi-regular shaft, less than 5 ft square, that would snake upwards a level or, if there was no level above it, all the way to the surface.
If 5e has updated the tables, then YES, I'd like to see their take. But if they've massively changed the sense and organization of this particular table's purpose ~ that is, to define space and not content ~ then I'm not sure it's of any value. Most likely, I'd expect they've corrupted the original generator's practical, flow-diagram utilization.
The 5e table looks like this:
ReplyDelete1-2 Passage extending 10ft., then T intersection extending 10ft. to the right and left
3-8 Passage 20 ft . straight ahead
9-18 Chamber (roll on the Chamber table)
19 Stairs (roll on the Stairs table)
20 False door with trap
The chamber table includes both smaller and larger rooms. The tables are still a flow-diagram, and it still defines space, not content.
I've tried redesigning the table myself (just now), and this is what I have come up with:
ReplyDelete1: Passage to the left, 90 degrees, 20-50 ft.
2: Passage to the right, 90 degrees, 20-50 ft.
3: Passage left(1-3) or right(4-6), 45 degrees, 20-50 ft.
4-5: Vertical (go to Table X) (Stairs, shafts and steps)
6-8: Passage straight ahead, 20-50 ft.
9-19: Roll 1d6 twice, and combine the results**
11-18: Room (go to Table V)
19-20: Chamber (go to Table V)
* 20-50 ft. = 1d4+1 * 10 ft.
** If you roll the same result twice, subtract 1 from one die
The roll twice mechanic should provide all the parallel passages, side passages and so on, that one might want.
As a drawback this table also potentially requires a lot more rolling than the original, but I usually use a digital table rolling tool, so I'm not too worried about that for my own use.
Thanks for the clarification!
ReplyDeleteTheir table has simplified results. They removed the room/chamber designation. They also played with the frequency of passages.
This table is titled "Beyond a Door".
1-2: Passage extending 10ft., then T intersection extending 10ft. to the right and left
3-8: Passage 20 ft. straight ahead
9-18 Chamber (roll on the Chamber table)
19 Stairs (roll on the Stairs table)
20 False door with trap
I think the table could be improved by moving all the passage-entries to another table such that 1-10 is just "passage". The function of this table is to decide what is on the other side of the door, so simply 'a passage" is sufficent.
ReplyDeleteIf the passage is handled another place (like the room and chamber are) we will have much more freedom over the passages since they are not constrained by the 1-10 possible die results. I would like the passage table(s) to have the full range of all directions combined, both vertical (hole/incline/stairs/slope/level up or down) and horizontal (0 to 90 deg left or right). And both width and height of the passage.
And more off topic: Now that I think about it, doesn't appendix A need a table for the door itself too?
Seems there is a gap in my knowledge base. I thought I knew what tables you were referring to, but I was wrong.
ReplyDeleteLooking over the 1st Edition book. Not familiar. Thinking I need to take a back seat to this until I can wrap my head around it.
(seeing lots of possibilities, though)
Looking at your revised table, Alexis, I think you've included almost all of the spatial elements of a typical dungeon.
ReplyDeleteI might add a caveat for each passage: 5% chance of obstruction that blocks the passage. That might be a pile of barrels and crates, that might be a collapsed tunnel, a chasm, a stream, what have you.
Space beyond door is:
ReplyDeleteDie Result
1 Stairwell
2 – 3 Chamber
4 – 11 Room
12 – 14 Passages (roll thrice on TABLE II.A.)
15 – 17 Passages (roll twice on TABLE II.A.)
18 – 20 Passage (roll once on TABLE II.A.)
TABLE II.A.: PASSAGE DIRECTION (d%)
Die Result
01 – 26 Ahead 30’, level
27 – 30 Ahead 30’, sloped down
31 – 34 Ahead 30’, sloped up
35 – 59 Left 30’, level
60 – 63 Left 30’, sloped down
64 – 67 Left 30’, sloped up
68 – 92 Right 30’, level
93 – 96 Right 30’, sloped down
97 – 00 Right 30’,sloped up
I'm disappointed I cannot format this better in a comment, but neither the PRE nor TT tags are accepted. Hope it's legible enough.