Using Gygax's tables as written, there is a 60% chance of this result, once I've rolled that the door leads to a room. If you follow the generator as written, you end up with miles of empty rooms, like this, one after another, frustratingly filling up map while NOT finding monster to fight and not finding treasure.
I shortened the likelihood for this occurring to only 25% ... and when I got the result I did, of course, I considered just fudging it and producing another result. Thing is, however, I want you, dear reader, to recognize just how miserable this is for a players ... because right now my method robs you of the normal sense of "control" you have as a DM. As a DM, you don't have to put up with this crap, if you think an extra room is boring and ought to be filled with half a dozen somethings. And if you've DM'd for a long time, you're extremely comfortable and familiar with that sense of entitlement. Sure, the players can deal with this shit, if you the DM think it "builds tension" when you feel like spattering out a series of empty rooms. But now the shoe is on the other foot.
The problem is the same. We have a 30 ft. square room, with two doors, one on the left and one on the right. Once again, I'm asking that you fill it. Before you do, however, let me explain that your first problem is to explain why this room doesn't have a monster in it. Unlike a set of caverns, where emptiness is expected, or an underground ruin, where the doors are broken in and we might expect to see a bunch of vermin, these are carefully constructed rooms with working, solid doors. And a place where anybody might "just walk in." If this is someone's lair, they're awfully lax about security. They don't care about interlopers ... or they happen so infrequently that no one worries about them.
No, that isn't easy. And I apologize. I'll add to it that continuing the theme of the statue is your second agenda. The statue is your theme now ~ if you can elaborate on that theme, you can both solve the first problem and provide this room with a deeper sense of place and purpose.
I'd like to try something via comments. Go ahead and get crazy with the descriptions if you like, it doesn't hurt to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. But, to see if it sticks, I'm going to suggest disregarding any item or motif unless someone else specifically seconds ("likes") that particular item. Then, those items that are liked can be collected together and applied to a vote late this week.
Welcome to hell, ladies and gentlemen.
In the northeast corner of this room (running from the NW to the SE) there is large, stone sarcophagus. It takes up most of that corner of the room. It had a stone lid with a figure carved on it, but the lid is now smashed to several pieces in the middle of the floor. One of the larger pieces shows the face of an orc. The sarcophagus is empty.
ReplyDeleteThe door to the north side of the room is ajar. There's a piece of stone that's preventing the door from closing.
Thoughts: This is the tomb of "Bashag the Proud". He's got a big statue, why wouldn't he have a big tomb?
This room is empty either because the inhabitants are superstitious and don't want to disturb him or because the sarcophagus and rubble take up most of the usable space in the room.
The NW door is also ajar to continue building tension. The stone is there to leave doubts as to whether these these doors were left open accidentally or intentionally.
The walls are covered with engravings depicting Orcish warfare. In the center of the room is an altar dedicated to the Orcish god of war.
ReplyDeleteIn the southern wall is carved a series of stone shelves, upon which once stood a series of clay urns. These now lie on the floor in front of the shelves, smashed, revealing the funerary ashes inside. If one examines the ashes thoroughly, you'll find a single gold tooth filling that was overlooked by the previous looters.
The eastern door is also slightly ajar.
This room was once a guard room; table, a couple chairs, some weapon racks. It is currently filled with the thick spiderwebs of a giant spider. Though the spider isn't here, if one hacks through the webs, one will find both the northern and eastern doors open, allowing the spider easy access.
ReplyDeleteIn the web near the northern door, multiple devoured bat corpses are still tangled in the web.
Thoughts: Provides a good reason why the room is empty, but also blocks the passage until the players decide that they REALLY want to go this way (potentially having to tangle with one or more giant spiders in their own web. I lean towards considering this side effect a bad thing.
These spiders may or may not exist, in our current Shroedinger's dungeon.
Taking a chance with the bats, since whatever is behind the northern door might not be conducive to a bat population. But I did want to show that the webs actually serve a purpose beyond just hindering the PCs.
To my mind, the dungeon generator cannot simply be random. It's got to reflect, to some degree, the rooms that came before. That's a reason I gave up on generators; but for this exercise, the generation of a dungeon in various aspects can be reviewed, learned from and adjusted.
ReplyDeleteInside the room we find 5 more orc statues, shorter than the initial one. One of the statue's head has been smashed; the pieces lie on the floor. These are statues of Bashag's most loyal servants.
ReplyDeleteThe N door has been spiked shut.
Alexis, a couple of questions:
ReplyDeleteDoes the door from the main chamber have to open into the new room, or can it open outward from the new room?
Without a thief, it doesn't look like the party has the ability to pick locks or to find/remove most traps... Should we forgo the option to "lock" doors/drawers/chests for the purposes of this exercise?
Irregardless, can we further assume that we must declare a door locked/barred prior to the room being rolled?
How do you handle breaking down/open doors/locks?
I think the ability to declare doors as locked/barred would allow us some control over the form, or at least the order, of the dungeon.
All doors in a house open in from the front door, which opens in from the street. This is because an inward opening door can be barred shut against the outside. This is standard architectural practice and has been since doors existed.
ReplyDeleteThe lock question is interesting. Should a DM "service" the players by following the suggestion you make, by foregoing the option? Is that appropriate? And on the other hand, if locks are used, under what circumstances? All the time? Some logic has to be used.
L.L., I think you've hit on something else that belongs on the door generation chart, when I get to posting it: is it locked?
As a DM, I would never forego locks because the party wasn't able to open one. Point in fact, the classic AD&D monk does have lock opening skill. Mine wouldn't, if I were using strict sage ability limitations ... but then, many thieves in my sage system wouldn't be able to open locks at first level, either.
But when you consider it, a lock is a poor option in a dungeon. Without the danger of a watchman hearing the lock being broken with a crowbar in the silent night of the 17th century, there's little to stop a party from simply cracking them when found. Locks in the 17the century weren't made of Bessermer steel, they were made of blister steel, which did not make a particularly solid lock. It would be unlikely for orcs or goblins in a dungeon to have access to such a forge. They would more likely bar a door, requiring an inside-outside arrangement.
Breaking down a door takes a heavy instrument. A wooden door has about 10 damage points. 10 successful strength checks with an axe made for the purpose or blunt weapon heavier than 5 lbs., would pretty much take down a dungeon reinforced door. And make a helluva a lot of noise.
In the center of the room is a 15 ft circle depicting a grinning mouth with sharp incisors. It is oriented so that the lower teeth are facing the open door.
ReplyDeleteEach door has been marked in mustard-colored pigment in this room. The west door is marked II. The north door is marked III. The east door is marked I.
On the wall beside the north door is the following written in pigment: X I 0 II
Likewise on the east wall, in the same is: X II 0 III
The third message is on the south wall near the west door: X III 0 I
Each door if opened shuts the others, and locks one of them.
The West Door is Closed by the East Door, and Locked by the North Door.
The North Door is Closed by the West Door, and Locked by the East Door.
The East Door is Closed by the North Door, and Locked by the West Door.
The mouth always faces the West Door.
In a special pigment visible by infravision when no other light sources are nearby, the solution as written above is inscribed in Orcish and in Gnomish.
I would be willing to rescind my entry if you believe that the above constitutes a "trap", albeit a non-damaging one intended to confuse non-residents and make retreat difficult in a hurry. (Note that Closing the West opens the East and Locks the North Door.)
ReplyDeleteThe languages are meant to signify the commissioners and the builders of this room respectively.
How does this door opening/closing mechanism actually work? Given that the only kinds of locks that actually exist are padlocks, how does opening a door make a padlock across the room close?
ReplyDeleteYou're right, that's woefully unclear on my part. Let me try to clarify.
ReplyDeleteDeadbolts, hidden by a standard keyhole rather than the latch turn.
All doors, when opened, pull the other two shut by means of a concealed mechanism at the pivot point of each door. The hinges are essentially decorative, as the real power is in this system of gears at the bottom of the door. Jamming them would prevent opening or closing any door, destroying or removing them would unhook that specific door from the network but be otherwise harmless.
This network is concealed beneath the floor, and removing the teeth would reveal a significant portion of it.
If two doors are opened simultaneously (by unbolting one first and then opening both closed doors) then all doors pull against one another, and the stronger puller would eventually win out.
It would therefore be possible through some ingenuity to have all three doors partially ajar, but not by much: enough to slip a hand through or peek outside through the cracks, but not to slip through the gap, even unarmored.
In order to have enough space to pass two doors would need to be closed.
(I appreciate the call for clarification. I'm new to mechanisms in dungeons in general, especially envisioning them in clear detail. Please let me know if this is not sufficient.)
Assuming this can be made with blister steel, and kept in working order, can you please explain the mindset of the dungeon-dwelling designer who felt this served a purpose beyond the possibility that a party might happen to be wandering through.
ReplyDeleteSo, the west door was ajar when I entered the dungeon. I closed the west door to see if something came out. Nothing did, so I opened it again.
Was I able to close it in the first place? And was I able to open it to see the room? If I don't close the west door (and there's no reason I should), is the east door locked or the north door? Am I able to open the unlocked door?
The Open door closes whichever door is clockwise normally, unbolting it.
ReplyDeleteThe counterclockwise door is closed, and bolted.
The room then acts as a revolving door, with the bolting and unbolting acting as a means to limit simultaneous passage to avoid the "sticking" effect of people pushing more than one at once.
So to answer your question. Yes. Yes. East. Yes, but Opening the door you unlock will again do the above. From the outside of an openable door the room would essentially appear normal if you opened and closed the same door.
Explaining a use case below.
When North is the open door, the door West is bolted. East is merely shut.
A dweller who intended to head West could then enter from the North door, shut it behind them, which opens the West door and bolts the East. They could then leave through the now open door.
If they had wanted to go from North to East, they would enter the North door, and leave the unlocked East door. Closing that East door behind them would re-open the North door and re-bolt the West door.
This allows the room to be used for secure passage between North and East, while also allowing dwellers to leave through the dungeon entrance if for some reason they need to.
It's a revolving door that can be used to block the entry direction of choice from casual interference.
Whoever used this room last either left the dungeon and didn't shut the door behind them, or went North, shutting that door behind them.
I should like to second a couple ideas:
ReplyDeleteWebs: No monsters here but the webs indicate a potential threat. They're thick and grimy, with dust settled on them (mixing with the sticky substance, forming a paste). You can see the doors, including that one is slightly ajar (the north door), but details are obscured.
Broken Statues: Two statues in this room, both smashed, looking very much like they were dropped while someone was carrying them. Investigation shows that were likely carried in here from the north door; scrape marks on the floor suggest at least one of them was dragged part of the way.
Question concerning the proposed door "trap" mechanism: are we including a chance that the gears simply fail when the doors are manipulated?
You succeeded in confusing me further, Pandred.
ReplyDeleteAs a player, I destroy the west door. Seems easiest.
It's ok. I'm abusing your patience and this workshop to try and improve here.
ReplyDeleteWith a diagram, it's pretty simple: imagine it looks exactly like the universal recycling symbol, with each arrow pointing to the door it unlocks. With words, it's difficult.
Destroying the door an acceptable response, it merely costs time and noise.
I suppose my problem, Pandred, is that it is something that would work fine in a space opera. But even in the most powerful wizard's palace in the world, it would be incredibly difficult to master ~ but you want to put it here, in a random dungeon, made of stone walls and wooden doors.
ReplyDeleteAnd I see no value in it except that a) it frustrates the party; b) it slows momentum in the game to a crawl while the players puzzle it out; and c) it discourages believability in the game's setting; d) it inspires problem players to create their own annoying schemes; e) at the most, it might provide a small dopamine rush from figuring it out.
Is it worth the anachronism for that?
The floor is dirty with rubble near the door where you enter. There is a rusted greave lying on a small table to your right, along with a bronze dagger.
ReplyDeleteThe left-hand door is closed, but near the right-hand door (which is ajar and hangs crookedly on its hinges), there are several small skeletons of varying sizes, which could be rats or foxes. The skeletons are bare, but whole; the bones have not been scattered. The stone floor around them appears scarred and eroded, as do the walls around the right-hand door.
The scarring seems to reach out from the door towards the bones.
The door cannot be opened fully since something is blocking it from behind. Behind the door lays the remains of a broken table.
ReplyDeleteThe room contains more furniture some of which has been knocked over.
A trail of red drops leads through the north door.
I will second the idea of Danielle that a door has been spiked shut
Assuming that the stairs in the first room are still north...
ReplyDeleteThe south and west doors are each barred with a heavy, soot covered timber. There is a third timber on the floor behind the now open door, preventing it from opening more than 2/3.
In the southwest corner of the room is an orc skeleton lying in state wearing only a rotted leather loin cloth. The skeleton's right arm is broken as are 4 ribs on the same side.
Here are my seconds:
ReplyDeleteThe Rubberduck:
"The walls are covered with engravings depicting Orcish warfare. In the center of the room is an altar dedicated to the Orcish god of war."
It continues our motif, and I feel like a room used for religious purposes wouldn't be constantly guarded.
Danielle Osterman:
"Inside the room we find 5 more orc statues, shorter than the initial one. One of the statue's head has been smashed; the pieces lie on the floor. These are statues of Bashag's most loyal servants."
Continues the orc motif and the statue motif. It hints that a much larger organization of orcs occupied this dungeon.
"The N door has been spiked shut."
A simple idea that's going to intrigue the party, either by having them investigate or by making them nervous.
Shelby:
"The left-hand door is closed, but near the right-hand door (which is ajar and hangs crookedly on its hinges), there are several small skeletons of varying sizes, which could be rats or foxes. The skeletons are bare, but whole; the bones have not been scattered. The stone floor around them appears scarred and eroded, as do the walls around the right-hand door."
I've got some ideas, but I really want to know what happened here!
I second Danielle Osterman's "statues of Bashag's followers". It expands on the statue and orcish themes, and has a lot of features for the player to ponder: should we smash more of them? do the statues contain anything? were they made by the same sculptor(s) that made the larger statue? will they come to life or otherwise present unusual features if triggered? is one of them special with the rest inert? is there any linkage between the statues and the doors (whether mechanical, magical, or just conceptual)?
ReplyDeleteI'm very interested to read along.
ReplyDeleteI'm intrigued by all, but I'll cast my second for the small skeletons and scarred floor.
The place looks like a waiting room, with large wooden benches on the North and East walls. They are fragilised by age, and can only support a light load (say, a halfling).
ReplyDeleteThe north, east and south walls are covered in plaster painted with depictions of warfare, stylistic, with orcish warriors, led by an increasingly powerful looking figure, having the upper hands on goblins (north wall), hobgoblins (east) and humans (south), in this order of progression, and each time the army grows with the fallen race's warriors.
While those walls don't show any defacing, the western wall has its plaster in a shattered mass on the ground, clearly removed by tools and blunt damage. The rubble contains some pieces where elven warriors are still visible. On the wall, the raw stones show, with dryed blood spattered everywhere.
Above the north door is written "Strength", and above the east door "Honour". Both doors are solid, with no visible handle. If I have control over it, I'd have the East one unlocked and the north one barred from the inside (both could be barred though), with traces of passage toward both.
The whole place is old, and the remaining plaster show its age, crumbling here and there.
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I second : the orc warfare depictions and broken clay urns. I want to know more about the place, and this is nice.
I forgot, there should be blood on the broken plaster too, encrusted and absorbed. Probably some traces of it on the western parts of the north and south walls. But the floor is devoid of blood outside the rubble (was washed off, may remain some between the floor tiles).
ReplyDeleteI second Rubber Duck’s engravings and urns. The description is brief yet the room feels filled to me, particularly because of the urns.
ReplyDeleteI second Shelby’s bones and erosion. The mystery of it gripped me quickly and thoroughly, and it engaged my thinking without having to solve a puzzle or feeling like the answer to the mystery was out of my grasp.