The survival times, I admit, aren't very clear; I haven't yet sorted out my thinking on these. See it as a placeholder for the present, please. |
The thermometer as we know it wasn't invented until 1714, by the Dutch scientist Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit. Prior to that, there were devices that had been developed and used by scientists, notably Galileo and Giuseppe Biancani, but even as various thermometers were created throughout the latter half of the 17th century, there was no standardized scale. Moreover, these were either curiousity pieces or objects specific to scientists and laboratories. No peasant or common townsfolk ever saw a thermometer or imagined they would ever relate the relative feel of the air to such a device.
For that reason, I've been challenged to build, memorize and convey a system to persons who are so rigidly based in measured thinking where it comes to weather, including myself. It is virtually impossible to get a pure description of weather that doesn't turn to the thermometer to produce clarity, so that it's been uphill to explain what frosty, icy or wintry temperature "feels like," in a way that doesn't require me to say, "Oh, you know, like -6 degrees celsius."
On the whole, my goal of creating pages for each temperature grade has been a bust. The language isn't there, the information isn't there ~ and there doesn't seem to be anyone left to contemplate that for most of human history, people never used the word "degree" to describe the weather. It makes me wonder what that must have been like, given that I can't find any extant documents before the 16th century that discusses the "feel" of the weather in any fashion (science seems to have discovered weather in the late 1500s). We mention storms and winter and such, and sometimes someone will say it was a nicer summer than summers past, but there's no effort at all to actually, and at length, describe any such phenomenon. When that comes, everyone rushes to measuring the weather; it is obviously too subjective to meaningfully describe.
Try it. Sit down and try to write three sentences that could apply to weather that's "icy," as defined above, that can't be mistaken for "wintry" or "frosty" [without using degrees, obviously] ... and yet you know perfectly well from the measurement that it is a distinctly different weather.
Even here, when I've brought up the subject on the blog, mentions of the subject have landed with a silent thud. I seem to be alone in my curiosity about this, and certainly alone in any compulsion to address the matter in D&D terms.
Post Script,
I'll bet that the first thing you turn to if you try to describe weather is the clothing you'll wear. No good, that's cheating. I said describe the weather, not your tactics for dealing with it. We can recognize the Americans by how much they're wearing here in the spring. I remember a story that my uncle from Saskatchewan went to Las Vegas one winter ~ and was stopped by the cops there because he was wearing shorts and a t-shirt when the weather was only 58 degrees! They thought my uncle had to be drunk.
The thing I was going to turn to was how fast you freeze to death or get frostbite. The temperature in degrees doesn't matter, it is what it does to you. So Very Cold at 5-7 wind speed is the same as Bitterly cold at 2-6 when it comes to temperature as experienced by the people in it.
ReplyDelete"If you try to go to Edinburgh by horse in this weather, it'll catch its death by cold before you ever get there."
So not measuring temperature in degrees, but in comfort-level or lethality. Which will vary depending on culture, clothing, wind and other factors. So to Thorleif the temperature is Brisk; not exactly comfortable, but nothing that he couldn't work in all day, while to Raul the weather is Nippy; actually a bit painful as he can feel the wind bite at his exposed skin, slowly grinding away at his energy reserves.
I went there too, Rubberduck; but of course, that's still the weather's effects. Not the actual weather. I have to keep falling back on effects also:
ReplyDeleteIcy weather brings a sharp consciousness to one's face and nose, moreso than frosty; snot begins to run; the steam from our mouths becomes acute against our brows and cheeks; we shudder, tuck our clothes tighter around ourselves; in wintry weather, we would do so before we stepped outside.
That sort of thing. It is damnably hard to describe the temperature itself.
Not to get all philosophical, but does temperature actually exist as a thing separate from its effects? Celsius/fahrenheit is the temperature's effect on a thermometer (whether air, mercury or any other method). Comfort-based temperature is the temperature's effect on the human body.
ReplyDeleteWhy do we need a description of temperature as separate from its effects? Aren't the effects all that is going to matter in play?
The game isn't just about metrics. It is about immersion as well.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm missing something, but isn't attire a perfectly natural way to describe the weather? Especially since that's the main decision to make in reference to the weather (in the game, or in real life).
ReplyDeleteFor instance (ignoring precipitation for a moment), my experience of weather, from hot to cold, is something like a decision between the following:
- shorts, short sleeves (+ broad brimmed straw hat or umbrella if extreme)
- pants, no jacket
- pants, jacket (+ scarf if necessary)
- pants, parka
- snow pants, warm boots, parka, warm under layers, face protection
There are, of course, innumerable small variations possible, but if I'm checking the weather, what I'm really interested in is which of these general attire schemes I will want.
I'm generally not interested in the difference between, say, 5C and 15C, since I'll be wearing jeans and a leather jacket for both.
Anyway, I have always been very interested in your work on temperature (which introduced me to the idea of METT and CLO, iirc). In this case, not too clear on the need to divorce "objective" temperature from attire and effects, since attire and effects are the actual thing we're interested in, no?
58 degrees is absolutely shorts and t-shirt weather.
ReplyDeleteCrazy Californians . . .
In one way you're absolutely right, Charles, and in another you're not.
ReplyDeleteI'm stuck with defending the concept with a metaphor. Describing intercourse in purely physical terms, insert tab A in slot B, is the most common sort of reference to make if we're managing the actual process contributing to procreation.
It does NOT, however, make a good description of the visceral experience itself. You may dress for the weather, and identify what you need to wear for specific kinds of weather, but the FEEL you get when you step into the weather, regardless of how you dress, is different if it is 35 vs. 45 F. Whatever clothing you wear, you can't make the first feel like the latter, not in any way.
Perhaps I should ask a homeless person; who else feels the difference of those ten degrees than someone who must contend with it?
Or, conversely, "Crazy Canadians ..." That's all my uncle had to tell the cops for them to let him go ~ that he was Canadian.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't the immersion come from describing how it feels? That is to say: if you tell me that, upon leaving the warmth of the tavern, my nose feels as though it were turned to ice, like needles were being poked through my skin from the inside out; or that the skin on my face and hands turns to goosebumps; or my mouth dries up as my breath condenses into my beard . . .
ReplyDeleteIsn't that immersion? I can relate to these sensations, having experienced them myself. And if I were unfamiliar with the exact feeling, having lived in California my whole life, I'm not entirely ignorant of the meanings of the words. You say, "needles poking through your skin from the inside," and I can get an idea of what that's like.
It never fails, every winter in Wisconsin, soon as the melt starts . . . boom . . . people in shorts.
ReplyDeleteOften people who have no business wearing them.
(myself included)
Describing how it feels is as close as I can get, for now. But rarely have I encountered something that isn't in the least abstract that is so consistently described in abstract terms. I suspect that not only did the creation of a thermometer invent a scale, it also gave humans a language with which to talk about weather ~ one that was absurdly lacking.
ReplyDeleteI can go into great detail telling you how snow feels as it lands on your skin; I can even do so for different kinds of snow as you feel it. But describing how the air feels? Damn.
We have a joke here in Calgary that goes, "We have two seasons in Canada. Winter and Patio."
ReplyDeleteFirstly, you missed the humidity. 40ºC in the Sahara very different from 40ºC in the Amazon forest. I have experienced temperatures from -10°C up to 45°C. It all felt the same from -10°C to 5°C and from 25°C to 45°C. Also, I didn't experienced much variety in humidity in colder temperatures but high humidity is much more unbearable in highter temperatures.
ReplyDeleteWhich leads to my second point... I think people in the past described weather in roughly 5 categories: too cold, cold, fair, hot and too hot. These categories are very personal as you can see in the comments. But these categories are valid only for their regions. When talking about foreign regions, people would make comparisons. Here in southern Brazil (near Uruguay), we have four seasons but when we talk about the regions in the north we say they only have two seasons like hot and very hot or hot dry and hot wet.
Based on the above, I would not recommend create a weather system based on the entire spectrum. I prefer to use regional systems so I could just abstract everything from cultures, clothes, seasons, weather events, etc.
Thank you G.B., but I did not miss the humidity.
ReplyDeleteThe site that I work from provides a combined heat index (temperature and humidity) and wind chill, that the author calls a "misery index," that I use for my game. Ain't no flies on me. And so, in fact, for my purposes, my tables simply exist to help me determine how much of the author's misery index is wind chill. You can find his brilliant, complex site on the sidebar under "weather."
Can you imagine the headache of having to create my own humidity index? Wow, what a horror.
Second, when you say, "I think people in the past ...", you naturally have some contemporary source material from the 17th century that you're going to hand to me, written by common, ordinary people, not people who had access to thermometers and science and stuff, right? Because you wouldn't make a statement of fact like that without hard, applicable evidence.
Until I get my hands on this marvelous source material that I absolutely cannot find anywhere on the web, I'm going to have to stand by my statements: I don't know how ordinary people, 99.9% of the population, who had never seen even an unscaled thermometer (they were called "thermoscopes") in 1650, described the weather.
Also, just now, assuming G.B. that you're somewhere near Pelotas, your temp is 18.1 C, your windspeed is 7 km, your relative humidity is 97% and your misery index makes this feel like 18.5 C. This is of 31 minutes ago.
ReplyDeleteIf you're nearer to Pedras Altas, those numbers are temp, 16.8 C, wind 8 km, humidity 97% and the misery index is 17.1. Trust me to do my research.
Alexis, I was thinking about this s little more, and I think the data for sixteenth century weather would probably only be in ship's logs. I can't really think of anyone but sailors who had much cause to record the weather every day. A fair few survive from that period.
ReplyDeleteHere is an article on the subject, to perhaps whet the appetite:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/21533369.2004.9668335
Damn, that is a very good thought; I've been reading Hornblower novel after Hornblower novel and I didn't hit on that.
ReplyDeletePity, however, that saying a day is "frosty" doesn't add to the information I've already produced.
I wrote a letter asking a meterologist at the University of Calgary about climate effects on the human body beyond things like frostbite and hypothermia, specifically if someone had done work describing human performance or behaviour at specific degrees of temperature. I received this answer from Dr. Shawn Marshall:
ReplyDelete"Wow, what an interesting question you ask. I have to say that I am not sure I can help, though I think I understand what you are looking for. There is a field of biometeorology, which is just what it sounds like, where I am sure you are right - someone has looked at this, how temperate changes affect us physiologically and viscerally."
So I have another avenue to follow. The page on wikipedia discusses exposure and allergens, the latter I hadn't considered, but I'll have to go deeper.
I don't doubt you do your research. In truth, this is why I like your writtings and come here often.
ReplyDeleteYes, I was guessing without a written source but my claims are empirical and not illogical. My point was not that people used exactly what I said but that describing weather without precise measurements is subjective and personal specially when you also try to describe its effects on the body.
99.9% of the population not only never saw a thermometer but also never gone too far from where they are born. All their descriptions of the wheater will be based on that fact. Charles article above even support my claims, weather descriptions in the logbook are vague. How cold is cold? There is difference between cold and frosty? Indifferent weather is indifferent to what?
Finally, if you still don't accept that the effects of temperature also depends greatly on the person here is two scientific research showing that thermal sensation and regulation is genetic and vary within one species. One article for lab flies and one for humans.
Drosofila: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ece3.4409
Human: https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007298#ack
I don't understand, G.B. I made the point that different persons reacted to temperature differently in my post.
ReplyDeleteOk. I didn't understand anymore what are you aiming in the post.
ReplyDeleteIf I understood, you are trying to create a chart with various degrees of temperature, wind, etc. and its effects like frostbite time and survival time. On top of that, you are having a hard time describing each degree on the chart.
Am I right?
Quite some time ago (and having used these for years for the online campaign), I created a set of "Temperature Grades" for use as a shorthand for weather, as an effort to escape from the scaled thermometer. Unfortunately, I still needed to give a thermometer equivalent, because, well, we're far too used to the scale. Here's a page on the wiki that outlines these temperature grades:
ReplyDeletehttps://tao-dndwiki.blogspot.com/2018/03/temperature-grades.html
Now I'm trying to provide some useful descriptions for these grades, to give a sense of what the weather is like when it is "chilly" or "frosty" or "icy," without having to constantly return to the temperature scale to explain what I mean. Desireably, the players would roll out of bed and I would say, "The day is cool, with a fresh breeze blowing," and they have a firm, detailed concept of what was meant by that, partly from the effects of that weather but also because they could go online and look up that specific weather, "cool," and get a sense of what it meant.
I tried this a couple of years ago, sketched out "pleasant" and "warm," but I was very unhappy with the paltry result so I put it to bed to give myself time to reconsider the problem. There have been a lot of adjustments in my game world since that time, and I feel right tackling it again. Here's what my previous effort for "pleasant weather" looked like:
http://tao-dndwiki.blogspot.com/2018/04/pleasant-weather-climate.html
I'd like something more evocative, more visceral and defined, more to the point of expressing to the players what it means when the weather improves. It's proving to be a trial, something of a challenge, with slow going, but I really feel that this is a useful, appropriate way to create immersion into the player's perception of weather as a 17th century person would see it.
Indeed.
ReplyDeleteWhat I was trying to explain is my advice is to drop the temperature grades and use something in the lines of a koppen climate chart where each region/climate will have an explanation of its seasons along some weather events that may happens there like hot streaks, hurricanes, snowfall, monsoons, etc.
Example: Make a page for the climate of England (or Koppen's Oceanic/Cfb), where you also describe its effects on people native from that region like what clothes they use, how much water and food they take, and so on.
Foreigners who travels in vastly different climates should receive a climate effects based on the difference from their home climates. A norseman travelling the Sahara will drink more water than a berber or when travelling the Amazon he will tire faster than an Yanomami.
I know the Koppen system well; but I don't think I'll go that route to manage your logic. It think it will be sufficient to take the mean temperature of the character's birthplace and use that as an adjustment for outsiders in another climate.
ReplyDeletePlus, people do become acclimatized. Norsemen in Brittany got used to it, and further still when some of those moved to Sicily.