Tuesday, June 27, 2023

Pricing Esoteric Wages

Most readers here know that with my streetvendor's book, I'm including hiring costs for select professions, enough I hope that they can serve as a guideline for others in their worlds, when needing to fix a price for someone I've left out.  Of late, in detailing hostels, a sort of "alms-house" for travellers, I bumped into the following and was hard put to define the job's income:

Charitable nurse ... 9¼ c.p. per day.
Procures an attendant able to care for sick and wounded persons, increasing the amount of healing that can be gotten in a day. As varying game rules treat recovery in far too many ways to cover here, the exact benefit is left to the dungeon master. Note that the fee is nominal; the actual income the nurse receives is covered in large part by the organisation that supports the hostel, as a "good work."

Depending on demand, such nurses may not be available every day, as they must sometimes share out their gifts among the whole. Characters should be able to count on personal attendance nearly all the time, however, and certainly never less than one day in two.


The skill-set described, though the book won't say so, matches the sage ability in my game world, "aid rest."  But because different systems and D&D editions deal with healing in vastly different ways, I've chosen in situations like this not to provide any specific rule in the text.  If someone wants to know how I do it, my name, my wiki and the book's name will be easily found online.

Regarding the "nominal fee" ... in fact, 70% of the nurse's income is covered by the group that has built, and manages the hostel, such as was done by the Knights Hospitaller, the Swiss Confederation, independent rajahs in India, the bureaucracy in China and many more.  Which would mean the nurse's actual income is 2½ s.p. per day, not the number given.  But don't worry.  I intend to provide the real number later in the book.

In any case, this post is about the number itself and where it came from.  Usually, I can pin the cost of hiring on goods collected or produced, such as with fruit picking, catching fish or baking.  In this case, however, there's no intrinsic monetary value in healing the sick ... which may be why humans resisted the practice on a national level for so long (with some nations still resisting it).  Yet I needed a number, and I must admit that for some time I was stumped.

To possess the sage ability linked above requires, by my game rules, 10 knowledge points.  In my game, these don't materialise out of thin air — levelled persons collect knowledge as they advance up levels, but at 1st level they start with a randomly generated amount of knowledge (see the link) that they've accumulated before becoming levelled, as part of their training as fighters, mages, clerics, monks, etcetera.  Therefore, they were technically able to learn things without needing either a level nor a single experience point, which means that any person, regardless of their status or experience must be able to do the same.  Thus rules exist for this too.

Thus the nurse above might be a non-levelled person who has simply accumulated 10 points of knowledge as a healer, merely by taking the time necessary to learn and make the necessary abilities checks.  He or she is allowed to make those checks every two weeks.  Because "nursing" is a scientific skill (in my opinion), she would need to roll against her intelligence and wisdom.

If the nurse's int & wis were ordinary, success and a point gained would come every 8 weeks ... but if those were much better, say 14 in each stat, then success would come every 4 weeks (a success out of every 2.04082 tries).  And surely we'd expect that a would-be nurse, accepted for training by a group such as the Knights Hospitaller, would be most likely to have a minimum of 13 in either stat, and probably better.  

In fact, we may easily suppose that a group of would-be nurses were expected to succeed in a given time frame ... and that this would include those with higher stats, who more succeed in their rolls, and a few with lower stats that are unexpectedly lucky.  Everyone else would be dismissed, just as happens in any school where expectations aren't met.  We may therefore assume that every trained nurse succeeds in reaching his or her competency within a year ... or not at all.

From this, we can assign a space of 1 year per 10 points of knowledge.  As it happens, in my game, a 1st level cleric begins with an average of 35 knowledge points ... that might have taken anywhere from 3 and a half to 7 years to accumulate.  Which would mean that if he or she started training as a human cleric at the age of 14 to 18, then 1st level would be attained somewhere between the ages of 21 and 25.

[ah, but admittedly, I'm just playing around with numbers]

While training, our nurse essentially lives with instructors and governors day in and day out.  For an up-front fee, or as a charity in some cases, if someone with promise is found, the school pays for lodging, food, maintenance and wages, to ensure continued education.  All this costs money — and there, aha!  A value is established upon which the nurse's income can be defined.  In this case, the equivalent of a year's poor food for the nursing student to eat, waving the other costs as in some way paying for themselves (as most are themselves involved in teaching as a "good work"), the total cost of education for 10 pts. of knowledge is 11,385.03 c.p.  This number can also be established (though some would argue) as the nurse's yearly income ... which calculates out to 31.19 c.p. per day, or about 2½ s.p.

Crazy, I know, to take this much time to peg such a partry amount of money, though 5 g.p. per month, as it works out, isn't bad for an NPC.  But there's bigger fish to fry.

Since everything that anyone can do is ultimately rolled into my sage ability table, it means that I can define anybody's income, based merely on how much knowledge they have.  There's an argument to be made that mages don't educate students as "good work," and thus room as well as board may need to be fitted into the calculation ... along with other adaptations.  But the main point is there IS a calculation!  How much does it cost to hire a 1st level cleric?  35 knowledge points.  Um, sorry, that's 17¼ g.p. per month.  Minimum cost, obviously.  Took me about 20 seconds to calculate that.

I'm having so much fun, I could almost die.

11 comments:

  1. AWESOME! And perhaps serendipitous. Having some down time and decided to update (fine tune? wreck?) my NTME tables. Adding some raw materials. Improving manufacturing. That kinda thing. To that end I re-watched your Youtube vid on trade tables (part 1.) As usual an undertaking like this raises more questions than it resolves. Using the Sage ability system (which my players are already somewhat familiar with) to come up with these costs is a stroke. I can only imagine the fun you're having with light-bulb moments popping off frequently!

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  2. Hello Alexis,

    This post is quite fetching, but I have some trouble with it and the rules of "Teaching Process".

    Those rules indicate that "for each point of knowledge above 1, a penalty of -1 is applied", thus while the 1st point has 49% of chance to happen per 2 weeks, the 2nd one drop to 42.25, the 5th to 25% and the 10th to 6.25.

    So for 1 Knowledge Point (KP) to have a fixed time-value, there can be no penalty.

    Moreover, "a cognitive knowledge point is gained in a similar manner, except that it requires 3 weeks of training", not 2 as you've written in the post.
    1 year (52 weeks) for 10 points would then keep around 86% of the 14 intelligence & wisdom students (60 weeks for 10 successes, 52 weeks in a year) (but I'm unsure it's the correct way to approximate this).

    Did I miss something ?

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  3. No, Vlad. I was clearly overthinking the problem when writing out the page.

    I've eliminated both of those from the rules on the wiki, as your position is well-taken. There is now no penalty on stats for additional points of knowledge, and I've made it so that it's always 2 weeks, never three.

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  4. Well, were I in your campaign, I'd lobby for regular training sessions adapted for the best abilities of the characters then !

    Is there a way for characters to teach each other part-time, like during evening stops or while being in the situation covered by the sage ability (like geology while trekking in an area with visible rock formations) ?

    I'm asking because I've remembered GURPS' rules of learning while doing, and its tallying of hours "on the job" to improve skills after enough time.

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  5. The players in my game have lately applied themselves to training sessions to assure that everyone in the party knows how to swim.

    The "learning while doing" angle is managed by the increase of knowledge points by gaining levels. This is the fastest method, as a low level party can progress from 1st level to 2nd in an afternoon of game time (though, admittedly, quite the dangerous afternoon it is). The drawback is that you can only increase your knowledge in specific class-based fields and studies ... there's no pathway to learning how to swim within the cleric's lexicon.

    However, cross-training in any ability found in any other stat IS possible ... such as riding from a warhorse or yes, a mage learning how to use a sword in combat. BUT, this absolutely requires a complete focus on studies for two-week periods, and with some things, such as turning undead (now also a sage ability), it means the expression of religious piety on the character's part as well. The whole has to be treated less like a cookie-cutter "do your time and get a point" and more towards a REALISTIC approach to individuals learning how to do things they have next-to-no experience with.

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  6. As regards to players teaching each other, as described in the "instruction" study. If you have 36 points of knowledge as a "swimming instructor," you can teach others up to 12 points. But that's as far as you can go. After this, the character's "swimming" slips into the normal acquisition of knowledge according to level gain. If swimming isn't in the character's primary field, and it probably isn't, then it would increase 1d4-1 per level, from the time when the character learned how.

    Let's say you have a character, a druid, who has 4 knowledge points in Oceanography, which includes the ability to swim at "amateur status," that being 10 points. And let's say that it's out of your field, so that even though you're a druid you're only gaining 1d4-1 points as a swimmer each time you go up a level. But that's not fast enough for you, so you go and get instruction for something INSIDE your class's lexicon, to hurry it up to 12 points as soon as you can. That's possible too.

    Recently in my game, two non-levelled NPCs fighting in the goblin lair accumulated enough personal experience, 1000 each, to pursue levelled status as fighters. These are followers of a player character, who were gained from the background generator; they're "childhood friends" of the PC. There's already another member of the party with sufficient points of knowledge to possess the sage ability "Level Training" (not yet described in the wiki) who can give that instruction, without needing to go to an outside source.

    These elements of the rules are intended to let the players tailor their characters, WITHOUT point buy-ins and without the ease of manufacturing instant power combinations. A character has to fight and gain coin, then get educated in small, patient increments, so that the players have MEMORIES of building themselves, without this nonsense of handing over a mountain of money to experience a "magic" transformation in ability. Overall, it makes for a more fluid, immersive playing experience, where a player has to be truly dedicated, session after session, to eventually reach the fruition of the character they want.

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  7. This is great. I've been working over the challenge as well: my solution was to treat sage studies the same as references. The price is then adjusted based on availability just like everything else.

    But my solution sidesteps the question you address here: the derivation of the base price. I've been slotting in a number that feels good to me (understanding that's not a long term viable answer).

    Much to think about.

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  8. Now the question of how we'd derive the price of levels above 1st.

    For the purpose of gaining XP we know it's 1-1gp, but how much are we gonna value a 2nd level Cleric over a 1st? What about 7th? 17th?

    Would/should Spellcasters charge per spell in addition to their "retaining" fee?

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  9. Alexis I'm missing something. Spurred by your post I've revisited learning for myself. My problem arises under "Read & Write" "Cognitive skills require 3 pts. in the ability to read and write before other instruction can be given" Fair enough. Just add that to the training time. But then there's this "The time needed is but 50 hours of steady practice, which must be spread evenly over a time of not less than two months." It would appear then that roughly each week (8) should get 6.25 hours of study or roughly 1 hour per day. But then there's this: "Nor should any one-hour lesson occur more than one week before the previous lesson." Not sure how any lesson COULD occur before the previous lesson. Or if there's a "one hour per week" restriction that would mean a minimum of 50 weeks or at least a year to learn. And that's just the FIRST point (?) So now we're looking at more than three years to acquire the 3 points need to proceed in acquiring points in cognitive instruction.

    So which one of the numerous potential interpretive mistakes am I making?

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  10. Ah, but you see Pandred, by the knowledge rule, the upper level price is already established.

    When you go up a level, you gain knowledge in all your sage studies. That gain reflects your increased value as a hireling. Your CHOSEN studies go up 1d12; the other non-chosen studies in the chosen field go up 1d8-1; and the studies in the non-chosen fields go up 1d4-1.

    And then, at 5th, you get another chosen study in your chosen field, so that study goes up faster, from 1d8-1 to 1d12. This happens again at 9th and 13th level.

    Then at 7th, you get another chosen field, and all the studies in that field go up faster. This happens again at 13th and 19th level.

    So there's no need to charge "per spell." There's another metric.



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  11. Escritoire,

    Those rules are intended just to get those first 3 points of reading skill.

    "Nor should any one-hour lesson occur more than a one week before the previous lesson." First draft writing problem. Translation, "lessons cannot be more than a week apart. Sorry.

    The idea is that learning to read really isn't a teaching problem, but a THINKING problem. You can teach everything you need to teach in just 50 hours ... but if you try to teach reading in six days, a little more than 8 hours a day, you'll get nowhere. Ideally, you want 1 hour a day for seven weeks.

    BUT, characters might want to learn over a space of 50 weeks, rather than 50 days, and the rules are meant to make that possible. As long as you get 1 hour a week, and no more than that, you'll get enough "training" to read.

    I should go through and write it better than this. As I said, first draft. Not my priority at the moment.

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