"The player is female and decides that her character will also be female. Inspired by the name of Morgan le Fay from Arthurian legends, the player decides that the name of Morgan Ironwolf would be a good name for a fighter."
This is all the personality the character is granted. A name. Preferably a good one. But the player is the one in the driver's seat. Nothing else, whatsoever, is said about character personalities for the rest of the book. Through the encounters passage, B23 and B24, it's made clear that the party decides what happens; no suggestion of any kind is made regarding what the characters may or may not want. Combat follows and then we're into monsters. No mention of character personality crops up during the treasure rules or the encounter tables after, whereupon we're into the example of the Haunted Keep on B55.
Finally, we get to a "sample dungeon encounter" on B59. Here's a typical description of the player and DM speaking their parts (bold added by me):
(morgan speaking): Fred and Silverleaf will guard the secret door, and Black Dougal will open the box. I'll search through the rags. Anything that looks like a cloak or boots?
(DM speaking): Black Dougal, you find out that you missed a tiny discolored needle in the latch.
[black dougal blows a poison save and dies]
(fredrik speaking): I'm grabbing his pack to carry treasure in.
(rebecca speaking): I'm giving Black Dougal the last rites of my church.
First person. All over. None of this, "My character grabs his pack" or "does my character want to give last rights?" This distancing nonsense between the player didn't exist for years and years, until some dick with a publishing credit decided we were going to divorce ourselves from direct involvement with the game by constantly interposing the character. Or having the character ask permission to do something the PLAYER wants to do.
Next thing we had simple background stories about how, "My father was killed and now my character is hunting for the assassin," and that has led to, "When he died, my father bequeathed a +13 sword into my care, on the promise that I would find his assassin. My father the king, that is; I'm heir to his throne, and when I'm recognised, I'll be emperor of the whole universe, whereupon I will regain my godlike powers and be able to shoot lightning from my hands, as my origin promises." And so on.
I shut this nonsense down by pointing out that the character's father is an NPC, and I'm running this game, not the player. The supposed assassin of the father is also an NPC; I decide who that assassin kills; I decide if the father's alive or not. Because I'm in charge of the setting. The player is not permitted to simply invent setting details to suit themselves ... nor are they permitted to give themselves objects out of the air, or confer lineages on themselves, or co-opt any part of the game for their own benefit simply because it pleases them. They can lie about these things. They can tell NPCs that they're the king of whatever or the god of Brobdingnang, but when the player starts to believe this nonsense, it's made clear that it's all a lie. I'm not interested in running delusional people who are interested in their own games of nonsense; I'm here to run D&D.
Given the present climate, I'm finding it hard to concoct the words that a new DM needs to hear on this subject. The character is a functional apparatus, designed to work in a functional setting. Non-functional details aren't necessary and are, in fact, anathema to the appropriate details that should be acquired ONLY through game play. If you succeed is usurping the kingdom, and name yourself king, then you've done it in game, through good play, according to the rules, and therefore you're OWED that position. But you don't get a free lunch just because you want one.
Last night, I went searching for the meaning of playing a character in D&D and came up 100% empty. There's advice for character builds, for step-by-step methodology, for why you absolutely need a character sheet if you're going to roll a character, what race you should be, what class you should play and so on. There is a proliferation of 5e character generators, which pre-make backgrounds for you, in seconds. Arguments are made that "a character is more than a stat block" ... and no. No, a character isn't. Because the character you make won't be around for dinner this week, or take your sister to the movies. A character is a "stat block" because it's a set of rules for playing the legitimate game.
There is no sadder evidence of the utter failure of D&D as a game than the fetishism of character making over character running.
So.
Giving advice to a would-be DM on "how to keep players from pursuing an excessive and irrational commitment to an ideal that has no application inside the game's rules" has me a bit stumped. I'm not ready to take a swing yet. By tomorrow, I may have had a revelation, or I may move onto the next problem and shelve this for a while.
"There is no sadder evidence of the utter failure of D&D as a game than the fetishism of character making over character running."
ReplyDeleteAmen!
The people I know in this hobby all seem to treat character creation as an exercise in creative writing. the games that they typically play explicitly mandate or strongly encourage that, but those players do so even if not required or prompted. to them it's just part of playing an RPG.
I think this fetishism played a large role both in the degradation of the centrality of the rules, and the decline of campaign play.
When Bob makes a character with a cool backstory and a cool personality -- when he is encouraged to take character creation itself as a creative endeavor -- Bob is going to want to suck all the juice out of that character ... play him for a while ... but he is not going to want to see him change or be seriously threatened, because then Bob is at risk of no longer getting to play the cool guy he spent so much time inventing.
So, Bob will advocate for rules to be downplayed in favor of "rule of cool," because then he can keep putting his descriptive brain to work. Using it persuade the DM he should be able to do such and such "because it fits in with all this other stuff about my character!" In this scenario, overloading character creation with meaning has created inappropriate attachment.
Alternatively, Bob might instead advocate for trying lots of new systems, or making new characters after every adventure, so that he gets to come up with cooler and cooler guys... In this scenario, overloading character creation with meaning (or depth, in games with large amounts of "character building") has made it just as enjoyable as the actual gameplay itself.
Neither is healthy for longterm play.
For what it's worth, here's my thought on what to say about "how to keep players from pursuing an excessive and irrational commitment to an ideal that has no application inside the game's rules."
ReplyDeleteNothing. Rather than reactively addressing this nonsense, and thereby lending it the slightest legitimacy, ignore it. A simple admonishment that distractions, whether they're discussions about football games, fantasies about the characters' past, or the price of tea have no place at the game table once the game starts.
Write proactively about what the DM needs to do. Talking about what he or she doesn't need to do wastes your words on defense when you should be on your forward foot.
This part is so frustrating.
ReplyDeleteMy first thought is that it's a sign of DMs failing to engage the players: "DMs, if you cannot focus the players interest on the here and now of playing the game, they are going to try 'making their own fun,' inventing ridiculous backstories (that have nothing to do with the game at hand) or being divisive and distracting to the other players."
I mean isn't the thing at the root of the "bad gaming?" Poor DMing (multiple reasons for that) led to unsatisfactory play, leading to SOME designers creating "stories" to be played, leading to yada-yada-yada...all the way down the line to, well, to what it's become.
The Hickmans have said that their urge to "tell a story" with their adventures (like Rahasia or Pharaoh or Ravenloft) was in part inspired by playing D&D and encountering a goblin in a room next to a vampire next to a slime and saying 'there's no rhyme or reason to this game,' and trying to give it one.
What they experienced was BAD DMing. Bad world building, bad adventure writing, bad campaigning, bad Bad BAD. They weren't engaged with what their DM had created, so they tried a different way (the sotry railroad way). Rather than fixing the DMing (or running their own, better campaign) in a way to take advantage of the possibility of the medium while still enabling player autonomy.
They were young. I don't fault them for being young, inexperienced, and creative...I salute them for trying to come with an out-o-the-box solution at a time when RPG design theory was poor-to-non-existent.
Their method enabled the company (TSR) to make a lot of money. Do I fault a for-profit business for trying to make a buck rather than being "good stewards of the game" or some such? Mmm. A little. Maybe a lot. Yeah, the dudes at the top probably could've been doing less cocaine. The 80s amirite?
But now it's 2022 and this kind of shit...character/story fetishization...is the accepted norm. And the stewards of the game simply feed the delusion to keep the machine (that money-printing machine) a-rolling. That's frustrating. That's sad.
UGH.
I don't know that there's any re-training on this one. Just need to train a new generation the right way. If at all possible. And hope the "trad" gamers die off or retire from the hobby. Maybe.
I appreciate the sentiment, Sterling, but consider.
ReplyDeletePurchaser of book picks up item because they really want to learn how to DM. Unfortunately, purchaser of book has bought a copy of 5th because it's popular. Purchaser is soon steeped in culture where everyone is writing backgrounds. Queue the problems that Maxwell, above, has described.
Says the purchaser: "What should I do about character backgrounds. Players are excessively attached to their characters and keep insisting that I don't seriously threaten their characters. But Alexis says, 'the game has to be dangerous to be interesting.' If only Alexis had told me what to do about this situation when it comes up. But there's nothing here in the book. WHY didn't Alexis talk about this?"
We can't solve problems by running away from them, or pretending they don't exist.
I have faith in one truth, JB.
ReplyDeleteI've had players from background-writing games, and so has my daughter. We've both experienced the bright excitement when the player suddenly realises there's a better, more exciting game than creative writing available. Suddenly the player gets into the old-style swing of things. Soon enough, they're regaling me with a tale like, "I went down to the Sentry Box [local game store] to get into the 5th edition campaign there and omg! OMG! Jeebus. To think I used to play that shit."
Most worthy players just need a taste of what made the game great to quickly evolve.
Amen.
DeletePerhaps I am being overly credulous to think that presenting the right answer is more valuable than rebutting the wrong answer. Perhaps I am being overly cynical to think that this is a tide against which you cannot swim. Yet both credulousness and cynicism lead to the same answer.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, you did talk about it, you said extraneous bullshit doesn't belong. Put rebuttal efforts into an appendix if you must, but don't complicate and sully your explanations by addressing other peoples' errors.
Alexis, you've just given JB the answer in, "Most worthy players just need a taste of what made the game great to quickly evolve," that I've been failing to articulate clearly to you.
ReplyDeleteThe worthy would-be DMs just need to be given the right instruction; they will countermand the wrong instruction of their own accord.
Must I go find a book about "how to sail" and demonstrate the author telling us not to do something in the first three pages?
ReplyDeleteOkay, perhaps I can assauge you, Sterling. I'm working very hard on a version that will present the position positively, by obliquely discussing a difficulty the DM will encounter while stressing that the character making process should focus on aspects of the character that will matter when actually running the game. The DM should patiently discuss the immateriality of the background, pressing the player to focus less on what the character IS and more on what the character WILL BE in the future after game play has started.
It's only that I'm not yet satisfied with the full dialogue that needs to be essayed.
I think you already hit on it. 'A character is a stat block.' To get players to understand that is the hard part
ReplyDeleteYour suggestion, Alexis, that you might find a book about how to sail in order to make your point has inspired me. Sorry for the giant comment. I have before me my late father's copy of Chapman's Seamanship, the definitive manual on the subject. This copy is from the first print run of the 52nd edition, pressed in March of 1976. The first 28 pages of this 600 page manual describe nautical terms and it begins:
ReplyDeleteThe Language of Boats and Boating-it's different from that of the land and landsmen, having developed over centuries of use by men who go down to the sea in ships, yet flavored by terms invented in our generation. When you speak of the "stern" of the boat you are using a word that goes back centuries through several languages; yet when you say that in the stern is an "inboard-outboard" engine, you are using a perfectly correct term that has been in existence only a relatively few years.
No, a boatman doesn't have to be excessively "salty" in his speech, nor should he be, but there are strong reasons for knowing and using the right terms for objects and activities and the like around boats. It shows a degree of interest and knowledge, a desire to call things by their right names. In times of emergency, many seconds of valuable time may be saved when correct, precise terms are used for needed tools or actions. In correspondence and other written material, the right word often shortens long explanations and eliminates doubt or confusion.
So learn the use the proper nautical terms for the parts of your boat, her equipment, and activities aboard her-to do so will mark you as one who is truly interested in his boating and who cares enough to learn about it. But above, form the habit of thinking directly in nautical terms, not in "shore" terms with subsequent mental translation-use the proper words consistently and you will soon find them coming naturally.
I am certainly biased, but this seems an excellent model for instructional text. Chapman hints at two unfortunate, common, and opposing, practices among the boating set of making one's language excessively "salty" and of lazily referring to parts and actions by shoreside near analogs or fanciful nicknames, without calling our attention to them so much as showing the right path. Chapman is not worried about getting the reader out on to the water in the first 100 pages. After terms, come regulations, not the specifics, mind you, jurisdictions, scope, that sort of thing. Then equipment. Then two more chapters on the actual COLREGS (collision avoidance, "rules of the road" as we say). Somewhat oddly the first subject concerning practice is anchoring, which, of course, one cannot do without first having set sail. That's chapter 6 of the 32 and I'll stop here.
I'm advocating that you should lay this out right regardless of what the idiots before you have said. Lay the ground work. Say what's right. What's wrong, when it's germane to what you're already talking about deserves a mere mention at most and dismissal. Don't justify your dismissal. The best thing is to simply explain as clearly as possible what is right.
Yep, saw it as a valuable instruction text right off. Look at the careful manner in which the writer condemns half a dozen things, argues for the importance of being "correct" and chooses adjectives and adverbs that humble the reader throughout. It's exactly the sort of language I've been struggling to find for days.
ReplyDeleteBut it does say, "nor should he be," in clear, plain English. "The DM doesn't have to countenance excessive self-gratifying fetishistic creative writing with regards to player characters, NOR SHOULD HE, etcetera."
Obviously, I'm not going to choose those adjectives, I'm only feeling a bit sharpened. How about,
"In directing the players through the character-making process, the DM can encourage the players not to spend very much time providing incidental details regarding the character's likes or dislikes -- or even the character's origins. This things can be left for later, if we need to include them at all. For the present, let's concentrate on the bare bones of what a character needs to have, so we may get to the business of play."
So I'm not saying, don't do it, but rather that it isn't needed ... and then later in the book, after the beginning and we climb into some nuance, we can add a paragraph about player characters that says,
"We learned at the beginning of the book that the bare bones of a character are sufficient to allow play. Some like to add a background that explains their character's motivations, but as can be seen this isn't actually necessary. What's important is what the character becomes through play, not what the character is at the start."
These phrases can be separated by fifty or ninety pages, enabling us to ground ourselves in strong game play without, as you say, "justifying" ourselves.
Damn good source, Sterling. I'm glad you thought to pull it out.
I'm so pleased you found that helpful! :)
ReplyDeleteJust want to echo: damn good source, Sterling.
ReplyDelete"I went down to the [local game store] to get into the 5th edition campaign there and to think I used to play that shit."
ReplyDeleteMy experience perfectly. It was like breathing air for the first time in your life and not realizing you'd been underwater until that moment.
If it can happen to me then it can happen to other modern players.
Just had to quote from you here to a player(because you're a better writer than me) and there response was "I don't see what the big deal is. Just making a story."
ReplyDeleteUgh :/
Thank you for the compliment, Lance.
ReplyDelete