Thursday, March 6, 2025

Mass Unit Battles

Yesterday I reworked a page on the wiki, Block Hex, which discusses the use of 145 yard wide hexes to map towns and cities, as well as tactical battle-maps. This is a subject not particularly interesting to a great many "story-based" players, who don't want their character's lives judged by anything as irksome as "randomness" or "total disregard for one's ego"... but for others, there remains the concept that seeks to embrace war and all it's indifference, collateral damage and, well, actual significance, as opposed to the personality needs of a player's blessed character.

Of course, no combat system I've encountered has ever achieved this.  I've read some that claimed to do so, but since D&D players tend to put the individual on a pedestal, it's hard to capture that sense created with wargame set-ups from Avalon Hill in the 1970s, when whole armies evaporated on hillsides like so many mook kobalds before a 17th level fighter lord.  Back when fighters got one attack per level against creatures with less than 1 full hit die.  Remember those days?

The trick as I see it, the solution for which I've not devised either, is to ignore the D&D combat system altogether when resolving large unit combats.  Don't try to represent it exactly.  A combat system, whether its RISK, Axis and Allies or Panzer Leader, is merely a way to resolve moments of strategy and tactics in a believable, methodical way that rewards thinking despite randomness, thus allowing players with experience and foresight to succeed repeatedly against those who think "tactics" boils down to getting there first with the greatest number.  I had a lot of experience in those hex-and-counter games in the 70s, before I'd heard of D&D.  No one needed to convince us that winning demanded a plan of action, not reliance on die rolls.

Of course, nearly everyone who plays D&D right now — particularly those who despise tactical combat approaches — are all in with the "stand-face-to-face-and-roll-dice-til-someone's-points-run-out" method.  The game has been redesigned to death to achieve this end result, which is described, universally, as boring.

But at least no one always wins.

Back in '77-'78, around the time I was in grade 9, we had a fellow who would not miss a session.  His name was Todd.  I wouldn't exactly say he was "accepted;" I remember quite a few contemptuous arguments about Todd when he wasn't present.  This was because when it came time to choose teams, Todd was going to be on either theirs or ours; if ours, we were going to lose in the end; if theirs, we were going to win.

As a general, one has to imagine Daniel Edgar Sickles, who incompetently led his men on the second day of Gettysburg from a strongly defensive position into a spectacular slaughterfest where whole companies were effaced from the planet, for... reasons.  This thankfully ended his military career.  Todd was Sickles right down to the ground.  For Todd, the best way to win a battle against hulled down tanks in forest hexes with infantry was to charge directly across a wide open field, "surprising them," as Todd would have put it.  This would encourage the others to try and explain just why this was stupid and how he might learn from the experience, but none of that went with Todd.  He wasn't there to learn how to play, dammit.  He was there to play.

Modern D&D has made it easier to be Todd because "being Todd" is how the rules work now.

But I digress.  A large-unit tactical game ought not to do this.  There ought to be features that make it matter whether or not I order the units across that creek bed or through this forest, in a relatively predictable, progressively experience-giving manner, despite the necessary die roll.  Numerous war games of that period had this... and this, I remind the reader, is the headspace and culture that embraced D&D and encouraged it's early growth.

Because, like the games we knew, it was tactical.  And we liked that.

But then, we got older, got out of school, had families, got to busy working... and a bunch of kids who were raised on non-tactical video games ruined everything.

I'm not bitter.

I don't know what that tactical large-scale block-hex game would be.  If I stumble across it in the cobwebby parts of my brain where I keep the rules of Car Wars stuffed in the bottom drawer of an unused bureau, I'll let you know.

If we were to install levelled characters into a larger "unit" that moved upon the battlefield, those levels and their skills would have to be accounted for in some manner.  The presence of magic, of course, is the stumbling block.  How do we rate a high level mage within a host of 400, attacking another host of the same size, acknowledging that the mage (at least in AD&D) has limited spell-use over time — and thus, over time, matter less and less in terms of that unit's overall power?

In my game experience, against a large force, running a mass combat precisely how a small combat is run, an 11th level mage runs out of any real significant power in about 20-25 rounds.  By then, most of their big spells are spent, leaving them the tactical equivalent of a third or forth level caster, who might still sting a little but has done what they can to swing the tide of battle.

I don't have an answer for that, either, but we must acknowledge that in larger hex tactical battles, time is far more relevant than it is in a standard D&D fight.  Distance between points of reference requires that.  Time likewise diminishes the strength of OD&D casters fairly quickly... so that, in the end, it's still the waves and waves of fighting combatants that matters.

The only question I can solve is that of "survival."

Let us say we have two mass units of 400 souls each, filled with levels and non-levels, especially the latter.  The fight and both sides experience 25% casualties.  That's not deaths, that's just the reduction of combatants to a point where they can no longer engage.  Naturally, we wonder just exactly who this includes... and the temptation is to nitpick our way through the process of specifically rating the loss of exactly this many soldiers and levels down to the last individual.  A mistake, of course.  We shouldn't care.  The overall unit is re-rated and that's all we need do.  Unit Red Vanguard diminishes from a power of 20 to a power of 15.

BUT... suppose there are leveled players of the party in there?  Are they dead?  We've taken away their right to roll their d20s to hit by shoving them into a mass of others and saying, "Oh no, you're overall contribution is insignificant.  You can roll for the Red Vanguard mass as a whole, but not for yourself individually."

Just listen to the storygamers moan...

But do they survive?  Does the player's 4th level ranger survive?  Or is the ranger part of the general casuality pile, and what state are they in?  Unconscious?  Dead?  Anxious players want to know.

Well, if it's a 25% loss, then we can make that a die number to be rolled and anyone caught in that segment might be either unconscious or dead.  Then, because levelled persons are logically resilient, and higher levels more so, we can assign a base number for whether or not the character has flat out died when the dust has cleared.

Funny how that seems more arbitrary that a dragon unleashing a breath weapon.  Ah well.

We could say, all leveled persons within the casualty pile have a base 50% chance of survival.  This can then be augmented by F1 +50% = unconscious survival, where "F" stands for Fibonacci and the subordinate number equals both the number in the Fibonacci sequence and the character's level.  F1 = 1, F2 = 1, F3 = 2, F4 = 3, F5 = 5, F6 = 8, F7 = 13, F8 = 21, F9 = 34, F10 = 55.  Therefore, a 9th level character would have a 50+(34/2) = 84% chance of being unconscious/wounded and a 16% chance of being dead; while a 10th level would automatically survive.  Or we could impose a necessary 1% to 5% chance of failure, regardless of level, so that there'd always be some chance of death, depending on how hard we wanted to go at this.

Naturally, the manner in which these numbers are assigned, or what the base chance is, can all be debated.  There's no necessary right answer until the system is gametested.

This is what I've got on this subject.  Thank you.

9 comments:

  1. I still occasionally re-read your account of the mass battle for the fort many years ago. It seems unreasonable to expect that level of play for other battles or even larger ones. Yet...it's hard to say exactly why that's unreasonable. It didn't appear particularly tedious (at least, it doesn't read as so, perhaps it was in the moment).

    Is it the vast amount of coordination required? It's just a matter of scale from all the other things we're coordinating in a game anyway.

    The answers will come eventually.

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  2. ACKS somewhat splits the difference here, where PCs in a unit indicate how ferociously they intend to fight, and then a sub-battle of X number of HitDice/Power level or whatever of creature is fought against the PC and their retinue, where the X is relative to the PCs gamble for glory.

    Then the results of that battle carry upward back into the level of abstraction, affecting the morale/fight roll of the units in combat. So a PC could choose to fight conservatively, facing their level in HD of creatures, and gain little to no bonus morale for their unit, or they could gain less or more by testing themselves against greater or lesser foes.

    This preserves the abstract level of unit combat but also lets the PCs interact with that system in a personal way, and I think is about as elegant as you can get without rolling for each individual combatant.

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  3. That is an interesting and entirely practical approach to take, and I would certainly incorporate that in a system of my design.

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  4. On the subject of dragon breath, and how a character dying to that might feel the situation to be less arbitrary than dying somewhat more ... anonymously ... from the proposed system of mass-combat casualties. Such a feeling would presumably stem from how, in an ordinary (non-mass) combat, the players would control their individual characters with all the usual micromanagement: taking painstaking preparations before the battle itself, arranging the lines of defense just so, cooperating as best they could in the heat of battle... and as such, whatever the success or failure of the party's side in the dragon fight, unless the DM had truly botched things or resorted to bullshit-like fudging the players ought to generally feel like they had earned the outcome themselves.

    So, the major test of the gamability of a mass combat system would be whether it gives players an analogous level of agency -- that same ability to earn success or failure -- despite the PCs now being just statistical contributions to a larger fighting force. I have no doubt that it's possible to devise those rules, but it would require delicate and careful work to get there. I think the resulting rules would be successful if and only if they essentially felt like an entirely new mini-game inside D&D, in the way that combat arguably is.

    I'm all in favor of adding more and more rules to govern more and more game situations -- but still, I'm pretty gung-ho about this suggestion that Pandred gave, where one would essentially "magnify" the results of a normal PC-vs-enemy individual-level combat into the result of a larger battle. Not only is it elegant, it would also be a good stopgap until the day that the mass combat rules can stand on their own.

    What that stopgapness suggests to me is that a good starting point for work on mass-combat rules would be those relating to reconnoitering, choosing routes, deciding on formations and rate of movement, etc. -- and then, designing accompanying rules that translate the PCs' decisions on those areas into inputs which partially/fully determine the precise terrain layout, the potential for surprise, possible weather conditions, etc. that would go into any corresponding small-scale battles to be "magnified."

    (cont)

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  5. I'll try a tiny example. Suppose the players are in charge of a fighting force of 300 men. Your weather system dictates that it is lightly raining in the morning when the troops awake. A druid in the party casts a spell to predict the weather and learns that it will continue raining all day, more and more heavily. There's an enemy castle five miles from here that the players hope to take. If the party elects to move their army toward the castle, then naturally the terrain for any small scale battle would be whatever is between their current position and the castle; perhaps a random roll would dictate whether the eventual battle would take place nearer to or further from the castle itself, with some possibility of the enemy fighting force not coming to meet the party's until they're right upon the castle.

    With the weather predicted, whenever the eventual small-scale battle takes place, the weather would be preordained as rainy -- but since we already used a random roll to say how close the small-scale battle will be in relation to the castle, then logically the further the players got toward the castle, the more time had passed and the heavier the rain would be at the time of the small-scale battle.

    I'm having trouble coming up with a more elaborate example, but I think that the general idea of "player decisions as commanders translate into constraining the space of possibilty for the small-scale battle" is a good one.

    Finally -- regardless of whether you buy my ramblings above -- you know how in Warhammer or similar wargames, the players agree on whether to field 500 or 1000 or 1500 point armies, and they build their troops to that budget? The decision by the party to take on a more or less challenging battle (as Pandred lays out) seems strikingly similar to *handing the DM a points budget for his side.* The DM takes stock of the forces at the enemy's disposal, picks up to that budget's number of HD in any combination he sees fit, and boom, you've got your opposing force composition. And no trouble at all to program an Excel or code randomizer to calculate that X HD force from an overall enemy army roster.

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  6. I use the battle system from Bushido. It sounds similar to the ACKS system Pandred mentions above.

    It resolves the big picture stuff adequately and gives a chance of a one on one encounter with a levelled NPC one per battle round.

    This can be very dangerous to the PCs. The PCs can of course, surrender at any time in the encounter, giving up their weapon, amour and mount. The NPCs can do the same.

    PS: Does anyone here read 'https://acoup.blog/' ?

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  7. Seems I did for a while, Nigli. Not at all a bad diversion.

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  8. Maxwell,

    What I like about Pandred's suggestion is that if the leader can decide to bestow greater morale upon the "unit," then it follows the leader can also decide whether or not to "hang back" or engage directly. If hanging back, it weakens the unit, but it more or less ensures the survival of the leader. This is "agency" as I see it.

    Very, very rarely does a party get to control whether or not they get hit by dragon breath, except at the start when, before entering the lair, I let them know there's a dragon. I suppose there are parties of later game editions who get to live in a world of, "we'll just avoid the breath," but anyone with a brain playing in a campaign of mine knows the decision is, "Do we decide not to go in, or do we go in and hope that there's enough people left to kill the dragon after the rest of us get breathed upon. Trusting that then there will be enough left to raise the dead out of the loot we'll find.

    That's why I don't see a difference between dragon breath and dying in a mass conflict.

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  9. I'm not sure that 300 is a sufficient number to impose mass combat rules. Perhaps it can be considered that there are "squad rules," where maniples of 30 persons are handled in bunches, so that 300 on each side represents 20 units overall... with some of these battles being managed in direct 20 to 20 person battles in standard combat manner, and other skirmishing (not involving PCs), being decided handily by faster die rolls.

    My perception is that "mass" rules need to handle the party showing up at a battle with 5 or 10 thousand, which are divided into "banners" or "cohorts" of 400 soldiers, perhaps saying that each 145 yard hex can hold one banner. Obviously, it could hold a lot more; there are 2,940 combat hexes in a block hex... but we could argue terrain as a limitation, and possibly frontage on said army, and in any case you can fit a lot more than one combatant in a 5 ft. combat hex, too.

    If we use this arbitary number, then, a force of 5,000 occupies 12 or 13 block hexes, or "blocks", enough to surround a village, enough to surround a town with gaps between (individuals could get through but as the roads would be occupied, not stores and not any large group easily). The banners could be divided into "companys" of a hundred to occupy, loosely, block hexes, to try and tighten up attempted sorties by small groups of bold adventurers.

    Where to place your banners is the tactical element; thus a hard campaign becomes, surround town, deal with skirmishers, attempt by outside force of 3 banners who attempt to break through to the town while continuing to deal with the forces under siege.

    My rulers define arrow fire's limit at 110 yards, but that's intended for specific targets. "Harrying arrows" could be fired at 145 yards, even 290 yards, thus attacking two hexes over, with random hits occurring. Large trebuchets can reach out to 800 yards (call it 5 blocks), so trying to get out there and destroy a trebuchet well back would be an interesting adventure.

    It's this sort of depth that I'd want to build rule sets for.

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