1. Pieces of equipment are complete units onto themselves; they are not formed of other things, and therefore no information need be given as to how much wood is needed to make a wagon, or how much meat a chicken supplies, or what ingredients, amount included, are necessary to make a bottle of beer. Furthermore, for the most part, very little effort is made to include raw materials on an equipment list — except for perhaps one or two dozen commodities. Certainly, a concerted effort to include ALL the things that ordinary human beings can buy locally are never included.
2. Players have next-to-no knowledge of how anything is made, or how it works, and therefore zero information needs to be supplied as to the pieces, fixtures, parts, materials used, or any other aspect of the piece of equipment being bought. We're buying a "rope." Because as players we are universally ignorant, there's no need to describe the rope's breakweight, it's thickness, the manner of its weaving or even the materials from which it's made. All rope, we are meant to understand, is exactly the same. This same rationale applies to every object in the game universe.
As a result, if a character wishes to transform bars of nickle, manganese and iron into a sword, there is no price for the bar, no manufacturing time, no detail of the tools needed or what space is required ... so that even if the player has done this personally, and knows the answer to many of these questions, the DM has to invent the price of tools, materials and space out of thin air, since no game equivalent has ever been offered. And if there is some version of the game that includes a price for a "blacksmithy shop" (I've never seen it, but there have been a hundred splatbooks, so it's sure to be out there), then it's a single-type all-purpose cookie-cutter blacksmithy shop, with minimal details and the assumption that every blacksmithy everywhere in the world is exactly the same, like waking up in a Howard Johnson's.
D&D has had 40 years to address this problem and it has done ... nothing. Because it's perceived that nothing needs to be done. Players don't want details. They don't want to buy raw materials. They want things they can march into a dungeon. They certainly don't care what their rope is made of, or what food tastes like, or how to actually make armour in game. "It costs such-and-such an amount of money per week to make a sword." So you pay the money and "buy" the sword that you made, exactly in the way that you would have if you'd gone to the market. What you've done is buy the right to say you made the sword yourself ... except that you didn't. In any sense.
This minimalisation forces the players into a conformative, passive mindset where it comes to purchasing equipment and deciding how to spend their money. The overall result is a total lack of interest in buying things past what's immediately needed to play the adventure ... which in turn causes the piling up of player money, making it possible for them to pay for the adventure's necessities, whatever they are, because no other enticement exists for which to spend their money. That causes DMs to lament the inexhaustible supply of player money, producing the DM's feeling that somehow this money needs to be drained in some other manner, by theft or by irrational training costs, which matters not a whit anyway because players don't care about money. Not in the system the game has built.
To a DM, this feels off ... because it seems evident that money should matter, since that is the human experience. It doesn't equate, however, because we view money most romantically as something that obtains emotional highs and lows, new experiences, security and power ... whereas none of these things exist in the game's structure as designed by the originators. In D&D, money is a number that's piled up until it's exchanged for something meaningless, that brings no special benefit to my character's personality, status or ability. Unless it does so through rules that make no sense, that are obviously invented for the sole purpose of reducing my money.
There is a solution, but it requires a complete turnaround of the game's design. JB likes to say that "D&D is about adventure." Adventure is exciting. It is certainly an intrinsic part of the player's experience. But saying that D&D is about adventure makes as much sense as saying that life is about sex, or that childhood is about Halloween. It is not necessary to adventure in order to play D&D. I have run a year's worth of sessions as a party established and organised their colony, cleared and planted land, interacted both peaceably and threateningly with local tribes, helped supply a war effort, freed slaves, planned for the future, began personal relationships, attended a coronation, infiltrated spies into an enemy outpost and traded goods they had mined, raised and acquired through diplomacy. None of this falls under the heading of "adventure" in any traditional sense, yet none of the players were the least bored, they were operating entirely according to their own agency, doing what they wanted to do ... and at no time would any of them believed they weren't playing D&D.
D&D is about playing a character that makes choices in a game world regarding their ambitions and intentions to accumulate varying measurable products: money, experience, notariety, the expansion of their belief system or anything they can invent. I once ran a character whose sole desire was to acquire books, with the intention of building an Alexandria-sized library. My tactic was to join the siege army surrounding a city, aid in the city's fall and then rush in to pillage the libraries within. Is this "adventure?" As a genre, I'd call it "criminality" or "war." Just because it's exciting doesn't make it adventure.
The frustrating two-dimensionality of the adventure-arrangement for D&D is perpetrated by the system's total inability to support any other framework of play. The books were of no help to the DM or me in describing how to wage war against a city, or how to be a small contingent of players operating inside an army. The DM had to invent this on his own. The books provided me no help in helping the players develop their colony and trading intentions. I had to invent this on my own. This led to the development of my trade tables, my massive equipment list and ultimately the menu I launched last year. All things that my players, and many others who have experienced these things through other DMs, to realise that "adventure" alone is an extremely shallow approach to what the game offers.
I'm stumped, at present, on how to explain any of this to a new DM, with shiny copies of 5th edition spread out before them. Some things just don't seem possible.
I've put off using a detailed equipment list(basically yours) until I can get the trade system in in place(put off until I have adequate maps), but now I think I'll just use it and make it available for its own sake. I'll just have to wing it as far as variable prices go for regions. Now technically everything has always been available for players if they wanted to look for it, but I don't have a list they can look at
ReplyDelete“The books were of no help to the DM or me in describing how to wage war against a city, or how to be a small contingent of players operating inside an army. The DM had to invent this on his own. The books provided me no help in helping the players develop their colony and trading intentions. I had to invent this on my own. This led to the development of my trade tables, my massive equipment list and ultimately the menu I launched last year.”
ReplyDeleteWhen you wrote Come, Herpminadelphius! I had the worry that you were trying to do too much. With that post I latched on to you seeming to start instruction in rhetoric, and here you mention rope-making, beer-brewing, and cart-wrighting. I realize however, that you don’t mean to include brewing instruction and the like in the text. In fact, I don’t think it’s even practical to list the subjects a new DM might need to learn about in support of the game.
Advising the new DM that he or she will need to acquire a lot of real-world, practical knowledge to run the game effectively is as much as you can do. I think the examples you have shown illustrate this quite clearly. The DM doesn’t need to have to know how to brew beer exactly, but should learn enough to discover that with early techniques anywhere between 1 and 2 pounds of malted barley per gallon would be required and that a batch would take 2 – 4 weeks to finish. Hops or other botanicals would often be involved, but in much smaller quantities than barley—maybe a quarter to half ounce per gallon. It’s helpful to know there are outliers, too, like beers that need much more time, and that most beers of the medieval period were probably lower in alcohol than today’s beers (and so being at the low end of the range for barley) and since yeast had not been isolated until the 19th century probably tended to take a little longer to ferment and vary significantly in flavor from one batch to the next. Finding that out takes looking at books written by authorities, not reading internet search results indiscriminately. It’s not a tremendous amount of time per topic though. And chances are there are only 1 or 2 topics that need to be researched after a given session in preparation for the next. Skill with basic mathematics helps tremendously.
“I'm stumped, at present, on how to explain any of this to a new DM, with shiny copies of 5th edition spread out before them.”
I’m not sure about the un-teaching part. Can you just ignore it and put faith in your message ringing truer to the clever, new DM than what contradicts it in the toy company’s poorly written book?
Lance,
ReplyDeleteMy maps are also not adequate but that has not stopped me working on a trade system based on Alexis's model (and using his 2012 reference & production figures.) I'm up to nearly 700 items implemented now. You can do it!
I would be happy to share details, screenshots, etc. if you like; I was thinking about preparing a brief presentation on it anyway for a programmers' interest group.
Well the problem is that the trade system is based on distance(I thought) and I don't have that(still need to georeference stuff), especially for waterways (contradictory sources).
ReplyDeleteThough I was planning on somehow programming it into the GIS files somehow, as opposed to using excel...
ReplyDeleteMy approach was to base the trade system on distance, but IN FACT, distance is just a stand-in for, "How difficult is it to get the product from point A to point B." You could easily arbitrarily assign a number rating between every point of production. New Orleans is "9" from Mobile, "7" from Houston, "3" from Baton Rouge and "14" from Little Rock. The accuracy of these numbers is immaterial to the actual system. So long as you, the DM, are fine with the measurements you use, then you can move forward past that hurdle by assigning quick numbers and moving forward.
ReplyDeleteWhat's more, you can fix those numbers later, if you feel the need.
So you're saying I don't have an excuse to not do more work? ;)
ReplyDeleteYes, very funny. But I am saying that you have no excuse for making the work harder than it needs to be, if it stops something from getting done.
ReplyDeleteYeah perfectionism is often more of a hindrance than anything else
ReplyDeleteNot to carry this conversation on ad infinitum, but since you mention the word "perfectionism" in relation to design. A few days ago I watched the film, The Outfit, that was released a few months ago. The film includes the following quote, as told by the tailor:
ReplyDelete"Finishing for me can be the hardest part. Not because there's any great skill involved in these final steps, putting on a few buttons, closing up a few edges ... but because, if you've done your job, all the true craftsmanship has already occurred. The finishings is a mere inevitability. It's at the finishings that you must come to terms with the idea that perfection is a necessary goal, precisely because it is unattainable. If you don't aim at perfection, you cannot make anything great, and yet true perfection is impossible.
"It's not perfect. You have to make your peace with that. Now? Well ... you sit at your board. You lay out your tools. And you start again."
Twice, I accidentally posted this comment before it was done. I was going to say that the quote hit home with me; I paraphrased it to Sterling yesterday or the day before, I think. It's the core approach a designer has to take towards making anything that's going to be of value to another person. It's the approach one has to take again and again, no matter how often perfection, or anything like perfection, is missed by ten thousand miles. It's what I mean when I say, repeatedly, don't worry about things. Work. Keep working. Have faith.
I have the perspective of a man who's been working for 43 years ... a person who knows what bad writing is, because I churned it out for decades. I still produce bad writing. I produce bad designs, I produce bad arguments. The making of those things isn't what's important. What's important is recognising something when it's bad, saying so, and not making it again. Make something better. Comfort is found in knowing that what I write next year will be better than what I'm writing this year.
My players recently arrived in the main "elvish capital" of my world. They were quite surprised at how expensive even "general equipment" cost. 300' of rope cost them 30 platinum pieces (the elves usual unit of exchange)...they balked at the price until they realized they were getting a rope of superior quality that weight only a quarter of a normal line of hemp.
ReplyDeleteBesides...they needed the rope.
As far as teaching a different mindset: yeah, it's tough to explain how to do it textually. But (generally) it comes down to the DM doing the work, building and treating the campaign world with care. Once the players see the DM is doing that...and they have agency to explore/live AT WILL...they hop on board pretty quick.
The PCs found a crystal ball that none of them could use (no mages in the party). They decided to sell it, and were able to find a buyer in Elf Town (a guy who wanted to hire them for a little work anyway). He offered them a fist-sized emerald (5,000 g.p.) if they wanted to unload it Right Now...which they did (time being money). They then used the emerald to open a line of credit at the "adventure supply shop" to pay for all the fancy ropes, etc.
Meanwhile, they were able to procure a buyer for their lumber, turning 30 tons of wood into 7,500 g.p. (1,500 platinum). Net profit was only around 870 g.p. (after tariffs, docking fees, longshoreman wages, and warehouse costs)...but considering a 14 day turnaround, that's not a bad chunk of change. If they could heal their "labor relations" with the orcish lumberjacks in Port Angeles, their profit margin would be dramatically increased...enough to make a decent income, if they wanted to give up the "adventuring life;" but it's really just trading one type of 'venture for another.
[they're considering it...having seen half the party devoured by owl bears in their last 'excursion,' they're giving it a great deal of thought]
The evolution of the D&D rules into...well, into what it is...is a result of failing to engage the players. That's it. We'll describe specific rules for how to build a fire with a tinderbox, or list a thousand 'cool' things your character can do as it levels up, just to grab the players' attention. Instead of teaching the DM how to create a world that forces focus and interaction and engagement. Because that would be...too easy?
I don't know. The more I do it, the more elementary it all seems.
JB: "7,500 GP revenue into 870 GP profit" got my attention. How do you calculate the longshoreman pay, tariffs, and other fees? "N longshoreman per ton of wood * Q silver per longshoreman", and so on? Nothing wrong with that , I just want to know how all that money got chipped away (if Alexis doesn't mind us taking a tangent to his original post...)
ReplyDeletefirst, looking fwd to the answer to MJ's inquiry above.
ReplyDeletesecond: After a year of play my table is taking a two month break. Gives me a chance to re-evaluate what's going on. I implemented a NTME economics/trade system. Players love it. Eat it up, Still remember the look on their faces when they strode into a provisioner in the middle of nowhere and sought to buy a 50' silk rope. He just looked at them funny. I meta-asked if they'd ever SEEN silk. Nope. Ever seen a mulberry tree? Nope. Here's the deal: there's a less than 4% chance of them having it and if they DID it'd cost well over 3,000 gp! Weather system has been equally well-received.
Food? Regional delicacies. My half-orc barbarian makes special trips to get pancakes from a certain lumberjack deep in the woods. And another village makes the best mustard for days. Local menus have been fun and flavorful. But I realized I, too, was just hand-waiving travel food. So during the break I began incorporating your sage knowledge rules. This lead to some serious rethinking about hunting and foraging and THAT led me to incorporating your nutrition rules, and coming up with my own “too detailed for my own good” spreadsheet for diet on the road.
After a bit of research I used (//www.omnicalculator.com/health/bmr-harris-benedict-equation) to calculate the caloric needs of each member of the party based on Ht/Wt/Age/gender and class. It can be modified for “resting” if need be but my focus is on cross-country travel. One pound of food for every 1k calories. We're gonna require 24% dairy, 24% cereals, 24% fruits & veggies, 24% meat, 4% salt & spices, and indulgences. Spreadsheets rule. I can now “easily” chart how much the party has on hand and what everybody's needs are. If you come up short (on a weekly basis) you pay the price.
Testing begins in October but thx!!!!
You're welcome! I think the most telling point is that your players love it.
ReplyDeleteAs regards JB's answer, JB has been AWOL for a couple of weeks now. I hope it's only summer, but when he disappears like this, I always worry.
Hey, man…I’m here. It’s just summer (busy-busy-busy). Though I thought I *did* answer MJ’s question with a rather long-winded reply…maybe Blogger ate it?
DeleteHm, no on the comment. Never saw it. And it's not in my spam bin either.
ReplyDeleteNice to hear from you, JB.
Huh, weird.
ReplyDeleteHere's a (perhaps briefer) rewrite of my earlier explanation:
Looking at real world timber prices ended up giving me the "bulk price" I was using (after converting length/feet to tonnage, because tonnage is far easier/simpler to work with). With the idea that 1 g.p. is a $20 bill, a value of 3,000 g.p. for 30 tons is pretty comparable...and is the same as *my* average value for "bulk goods" (given in copper pieces: 30 tons of copper = 600,000 c.p. = 3,000 g.p.). The fact they had to pay 6,000 g.p. to obtain the shipment is due in large part to the circumstances in their port of debarkation and the price of expedience.
My elves are kind of snooty European-esque with a metric-standard type economy based on "silvery metals:" they use silver for copper, electrum for silver, and platinum for gold (so 100 s.p. = 10 e.p. = 1 p.p.). They also have a mithril coin worth 10 platinum for large transactions. Everything costs more in "elf town" (about 5 times as much) even leaving out conversion fees for those "barbaric" gold and copper coins humans use.
So, an elvish laborer (longshoreman) hired to unload the ship costs 1 silver piece per 10 hour work day. Per Ye Old Internet, it takes 1 man hour of labor to move 3 cubic feet of material (didn't say what type of material and I didn't ask...I just want SOME guidelines). 30 tons = 3,000 cubic feet, so 1,000 man hours (100 silver pieces) are needed to unload the ship and get the material to a local warehouse. I probably could have upped this, but it works for now.
Docking fees are by ship tonnage: 10 g.p. per ton berthen (300 g.p. for the PCs' boat). Duty on raw materials being brought into port are 1 e.p. per ton for citizens/locals or double that (2 e.p. = 1 g.p.) for foreigners like the players. Employing a warehouse to hold raw materials (like timber, which needs less care and handling) is a simple 1 g.p. per ton per day and I believe I rolled a 2d10 or 2d6 to find out how many days it would take to locate a buyer...it ended up being 10 days, and thus 300 g.p. total for storage.
Sale price was based on a random table I created ranging from "no buyer" and -50% all the way up to +350% of value at the top end. The die roll came up a +150% so they were able to sell 3,000 g.p. worth of timber for 7,500 g.p. - a very nice profit (especially if they'd been able to obtain the stuff for "cost")...but they'd been told that this was a good possibility in selling cedar to the elves, and was the reason they decided to do so. Taxes on raw goods sold are 1% of the final price for citizens, or 3% for foreigners, so 225 g.p. went right into the tax man's coffers. By comparison, manufactured goods had a 2% / 4% tax base and luxury items would have been 8% /10%...all of which still means less taxes paid on sale items than if you live in real world Seattle.
SO...7500 minus 6000 minus 300 (docking) minus 30 (duties), minus 5 (labor) minus 300 (storage) minus 225 (taxes) ended up being about 640 gold pieces of net profit...or less, if one considers the investment in a sailing vessel, hiring of crew, provisioning, etc. Not a whole lot, but still the equivalent of some $12,800 in "real world" money for only a couple weeks time...and the potential to make much more if they can get their "orc issues" sorted in Port Angeles. Plus, they now have a ship, they have contacts with the elvish locals (it's a good thing most of the PCs are elves or half-elves as there are a lot of additional fees, bribes, and bureaucratic hassles with the port authorities for non-elves), and they have a rudimentary understanding of what being a "timber merchant" entails which are all net positives for the party.
Even so, owlbear eggs (which sell for 2,000 g.p. apiece) remain a more lucrative venture...albeit one involving substantially more risk.
; )