Saturday Q&A (nov 4)

Sterling in Maine writes:

Going back to your August 15 post, "Not Enough Game," I'm in agreement with your conclusion that Gygax and subsequent developers of the game became hung up on dungeon delving to the exclusion of other parts of the game that I believe were envisioned early on. In the last issue of the Strategic Review in April of '76, Gygax wrote, in the context of explaining the differences between magic in Chainmail and in D&D, "While miniatures battles on the table top were conceived as a part of the overall game system, the major factor was always envisioned as the underworld adventure, while the wilderness trek assumed a secondary role, various other aspects took a third place, and only then were miniatures battles considered."

We might take "various other aspects" to mean elements like "TERRITORY DEVELOPMENT BY PLAYER CHARACTERS," which received 1 page of rules in the DMG and a paragraph for each of the three character classes permitted to pursue it: clerics, fighters, and magic-users. Arguably rangers too, since they "conform to the fighter class in other respects" and territory development is not explicitly mentioned in their class description. How a ranger could ever build a stronghold, even though the PH says he can, when he "may only own those goods and treasure which they can carry on their person and/or place upon their mount" is a mystery to me still. Given how few rules were provided around this activity, I'd this is an area of "not enough game" ripe for development. The "various other aspects" got short shrift and miniature battles no consideration in the rules.

It's clear to me, though not from the rules provided, that the dungeon is meant as the means for the lower level character to acquire sufficient experience and wealth to reach "name level," establish a territory, and thence consolidate sufficient force to conquer neighbors, expanding territory and thereby economic base to undertake greater conquests. The game seems destined to go from being a cooperative pursuit early to a competitive one later as the former dungeoneering comrades become rival lords. At this stage the game has become a wargames campaign and the DM has become the referee.

Some of the "more game" that's most needed is the development of economic base to support warfare. That's where I intend to focus my efforts in my current game. I hope you'll develop more in this area too, perhaps in the context of hammers, bread, coin, infrastructure, and so on on your wiki.

Answer:  I can't disagree with that.

Griffin writes:

I've been wondering when during the game, precisely, you award experience and grant new levels? Working on the assumption that someone can't just gain a level in the middle of combat.

Experience kicks in right after finding the treasure? Until it gets back to some safe area? For combat XP, right after the combat ends? After a period of rest?

Answer: Combat experience is awarded after every fight, since it depends on who actually survives. If a character dies during a combat, whether or not they can be raised at once or returned by death's door, that character receives no experience afterwards. The shock of having died, and the recovery therefrom, creates a traumatic break that causes the character to have no memory of the combat; therefore, both experience from having caused damage or received it, or bonus experience, is denied that individual. This merely sends the message that the character lost that part of the game and is therefore not rewarded.

Since experience isn't awarded until the combat ends, no, there's no way to go up a level during a combat. Of course, it's possible to have a combat, receive experience, go up a level, then enter a new combat within a few rounds. This assumes that the previous combat ended completely, so that for at least one combat round, there are absolutely no threats nor expected threats before the party. If, for example, as the last orc in this combat was dying, the sound of orc boots could be clearly heard rushing along the corridor towards the party, the combat wouldn't be counted as ended yet, since plainly it isn't.

I grant new levels instantly.  I've played a system where the player had to return to town and train. It added nothing to the game. The illogic that some find with instant levelling up, I find, detracts nothing from the game. Players work for their experience. When they get the points they've earned, they've earned their advance.

I also tried a system where the players had to buy material wealth with their treasure in order to get experience: property, goods, paying for hirelings and so on. Again, it added nothing to the game.  I give the players experience for the treasure they find, when they find it. It's easy and I find it detracts not at all from the players motivation to continue playing, nor the tension of the game.

I appreciate an argument that something should be "realistic" as much as the next DM ... but for me, the line drawn is what improves the actual game play and what just creates a lot of player inconvenience for no good purpose.

Shelby writes:

I was curious about your opinion on the following after reading last week's discussion of sage abilities. A while ago, I got ChatGPT to generate a list for Forgery. It seems to me to follow the pattern fairly well. I have not edited the content beyond simple formatting:

Amateur

Faux Documents: The character can create simple false documents such as letters, permits, or identification papers that appear legitimate at first glance. These documents are convincing enough to fool casual observers but might not withstand intense scrutiny.

Signature Imitation: The character has practiced imitating signatures and can replicate the handwriting of others. This ability allows them to sign documents on behalf of others, potentially fooling those who are not intimately familiar with the original signature.

Seal Fabrication: The character can craft imitations of official seals, insignias, or stamps used to validate documents. These fabricated seals appear authentic at a glance and can lend an air of credibility to the forged documents.

Simple Disguises: This ability extends to more than just written documents. The character can create simple disguises for themselves or others, using basic props and changes in attire to assume new identities briefly. These disguises are effective against casual observation but might not withstand close examination or scrutiny.

Authority

Masterful Replication: The character's skill in forgery has reached a level where they can replicate a wide range of documents and artifacts with remarkable accuracy. Their creations are so convincing that even experts might find it difficult to detect the forgery without detailed analysis.

Subtle Manipulation: The character has developed the ability to subtly manipulate the content of forged documents to achieve specific outcomes. By crafting documents that convey certain tones or wording, they can influence readers' perceptions and decisions without arousing suspicion.

Complex Disguises: This ability allows the character to create intricate disguises that extend beyond simple props and attire. They can use special effects like makeup, prosthetics, and even temporary changes in voice to adopt entirely new personas, making it exceedingly difficult for others to recognize them.

Invisible Falsification: The character's forgeries are so advanced that they can create documents, markings, or seals that are virtually indistinguishable from genuine articles even under thorough inspection. This ability involves expert techniques like microprinting, invisible inks, or hidden watermarks that remain undetectable to all but the most astute observers.

Expert

Temporal Mastery: The character has honed their skills to the point where they can imitate the writing styles and materials of different historical eras with exceptional accuracy. They can replicate documents that appear as if they were genuinely crafted during specific time periods, fooling even knowledgeable historians.

Multi-Layered Deception: The expert forger can create documents that hold up under intense scrutiny from different angles. These documents might have concealed layers of meaning, codes, or hidden compartments that only reveal themselves through specialized techniques or knowledge.

Crisis Fabrication: This ability allows the character to craft forgeries quickly in high-pressure situations. Whether under time constraints or while being observed, they can create convincing documents on the fly, perhaps even forging entire narratives in dire moments.

Living Persona: The expert forger can take on the identity of another person not only through documents but also through speech patterns, body language, and emotional responses. They can convincingly act as though they are the individual they are impersonating, fooling even those who are closely acquainted with the real person.

Sage

Reality Distortion: The sage has reached a level of mastery where they can fabricate documents that can subtly alter the perception of reality. The forgeries they create can influence events or even change historical records, leading to significant shifts in the world's understanding of events.

Perfect Identity Emulation: This ability allows the sage to seamlessly assume the identity of another individual, not just through forged documents or appearance, but also by adopting their mannerisms, thoughts, and memories. They become an embodiment of the person they're impersonating, making it nearly impossible to discern the deception.

Fate Rewriting: The sage's forgeries hold a level of mystique that transcends the mundane. By crafting special documents, they can influence the course of events in subtle ways, altering destinies and potentially changing the outcomes of critical situations.

Ephemeral Enchantment: This advanced skill enables the sage to create ephemeral forgeries that appear only to certain individuals or under specific conditions. These forgeries might appear only in moonlight, for instance, or become visible only when viewed through a particular type of glass, granting them an air of mystical authenticity.

Answer: This is very similar to the sorts of lists I'm generating myself for sage studies. It's a tricky matter, as of course chat doesn't understand the premise nor its application for D&D.

For the most part, I'd use some of these, absolutely. Faux documents and signature imitation are excellent for amateur. Because seal fabrication would require a workshop, I'd rate it under authority.  Masterful replication is, in essence, too general. The forgery at this point should be descriptive along the lines of who it would fool, not how complicated it is.  For example, it would pass muster with any village or town bureaucracy, but would almost certainly fail if presented at court.

At expert, the ability descriptions break down. While interesting, they're all essentially abilities the character should have as an authority. There's no real game power here, as chat can't think out of the box without being led by the nose. An idea might be that forgeries are so good they might as well be real, as everyone will treat them as such except in the most profound of situations. There should be a wisp of the supernatural in the study at this point, without the abilities actually competing with magical spells.

And that is the problem with the simple disguises and complex disguises abilities. "Disguise" is a completely different study, related to performance and the assassin ability, "guile." Moreover, there are already many choices for creating a disguise in the game.  Chat tends to drift into repeating certain overly used tropes through it's word interpretation schematic.  It's not very creative, because the mass of opinions on the internet, it's source material, are not that creative.

Finally, the sage abilities are a complete wash. Characters usually reach sage-status abilities between 13th and 17th level. And for that, the crafting destinies thing, that's something that an individual can achieve as an amateur with the occult study using tarot cards.  'Course, chat can't see that, because it's just trying to create something for this study, and is unaware that other studies exist.

I see two much more powerful pretexts to base sage ability forging on, having to do with signing documents ... first, the Devil and Daniel Webster, the template of all stories having to do with signing one's soul over to the devil; and secondly, Ursula the sea witch.  Consider the ability to create "documents" that empower the wielder to possess something like "diplomatic immunity" on the Plane of Hell. Or inherit the throne of an existing country.  One has to really think out of the box here ... which chat can be used to write out, once the concept is proposed, but which chat can't conceivably think up on its own.

OhioHedgehog in Ohio writes:

Some of this week's work focusing on the Sage system and the Wiki has motivated me.

I HATE feats. They are a symptom of the disease that has become 5e. Everybody can do everything. So we don't use them. We DO use your Sage studies. I ask my players if there's some "feat" that they're just DYING to have, figure out where it might find in the Sage system, and let them learn it. They've loved it. They don't know when they're gonna get a given feat rather than it plopping onto their character sheet after a sum certain of XP is earned. And there's all of the "associated" knowledge and skills. They use them. And they're SO much more rewarding. Rather than all characters being able to do all the things. They are unique. They bring their specific backgrounds and focus to any situation and it is SO much more than "using some feat that is just like that other feat the three other characters can also do."

So thanks for that.

I've also cobbled together this system with some comments from other followers and have come up with a decent "cost per day" for skilled laborers based on the sage system. My party hired a cook who has some foraging skills and he's been priced accordingly. As you've suggested, if they tell me what they want I can tell them what it'll cost in about 5 minutes or less. The world exists.

Point is I've really enjoyed October's writing.

The Friendship post struck a cord as well. I've run a fantasy football league since 1985 and we're a year round dynasty league. We TELL potential plays what the time commitment will be and then they seem surprised when it turns out we didn't lie to them.

Answer: I've been getting itchy about doing more mapping. In part that's because ES2 released the west Balkans for their truck driving game and I've been driving around Serbia, Kosovo and Albania lately.

It's funny; if I want to do any research on designing a sage ability, I have to call them "feats" where chatGPT is concerned, or else it has no idea what I want. I'm surprised you don't complain about the randomness of them, but no doubt that's assumed in your comment. I'm very pleased about your being able to price the cook's wages. On many levels, it feels that the time spent with the wiki, though it feels a lot of the time that I'm spinning my wheels, provides the best game material there is. Much more practical and valuable, I feel, than another diatribe on the blog. Yet, sadly, I encounter so little feedback from the wiki, and as yet I still haven't been able to learn how many people are actually using it on a daily basis.

I plan to spend November as I spent October, with the exception that I've got to get back to tearing my nerves apart on the rack that's the Streetvendor's Guide. September, as I said, was heavy on the day job front and through most of October I was deathly ill.

_____

Thank you for your contributions.

If readers would like to reply to the above, or wish to ask a question or submit observations like those above, please submit  to my email, alexiss1@telus.net.  If you could, please give the region where you're located (state, province, department, county, whatever) as it humanises your comment.

Feel free to address material on the authentic wiki, my books or any subject related to dungeons & dragons.  I encourage you to initiate subject material of your own, and to address your comment to others writing in this space.