tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post8914998702469704798..comments2023-10-14T03:58:59.333-06:00Comments on The Tao of D&D: Techs Living Side by SideAlexis Smolenskhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-37341188627737856652017-05-04T18:28:01.431-06:002017-05-04T18:28:01.431-06:00Joey, regarding increases in tech level.
I have n...Joey, regarding increases in tech level.<br /><br />I have no idea how you would have gotten the idea that a region's tech level is based upon its exploitable resources AT A GIVEN MOMENT in time. I draw your attention to Libya, which was a very backward part of the world for a very long time, until the discovery of oil. Or how South Africa was little more than a back country for ranching immigrants until diamonds at Kimberley changed the game completely. Or how the progression of the cellphone has caused present-day Zaire to become the most important source for coltan, a metal of almost no importance at all fifty years ago.<br /><br />As tech levels over the whole world increases, the resources that a region has can become vastly more valuable because of that increase. Did Zaire invent the cellphone? No, obviously not. But just as Portugal rounding Cape Horn five hundred years ago greatly changed the importance of growing indigo in south India or the importance of growing cinnamon and nutmeg in the East Indies.<br /><br />I've only tried to represent a state of the world in a very specific time-frame, when this particular tech-5 region is tech-5 because now, for the moment, it has nothing that anyone wants. That can always change.<br /><br />Of course, that change doesn't happen for everyone. The Central African Republic or Guinea-Bissau haven't been propelled into any great shattering change because of newly demanded resources in their borders. Guyana continues to exist in a sort of limbo. People have rarely heard of Ryukyu, the Marquesas, Kerguelen or Cabinda. There are hardly any parts of the world today that could be called tech-5, but there were many, many such places at the beginning of World War 2. They didn't change themselves. We changed them.<br /><br />I never argued that places were not changed; I argued that this did not generally happen until AFTER the industrial revolution. My world does not take place after the revolution. Therefore, problems of change are not relevant if they can't be expected to happen pre-18th century. Given that new technologies were not invented to use new chemical compounds until those compounds were proven to exist, post 1750 for the most part, we can presume that what a country had as a resource in 1300 was probably still what it has in 1650.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-91211891722707224152017-05-04T18:14:21.656-06:002017-05-04T18:14:21.656-06:00Pandred, regarding humanoids in the wild.
It is a...Pandred, regarding humanoids in the wild.<br /><br />It is a good question. You will note that the tech-system does not define the number of wild animals or monsters inhabiting the unoccupied hexes. Any humanoid that is not part of the system (say a band of roving orcs) would have to be counted among the monsters ~ and like monsters, they may have any tech limitation we choose to give them. We don't limit dragon breath potential by the number of people in the village it is attacking, so obviously we can't limit an attacking orc party by the tech level of the culture it preys upon.<br /><br />For me personally, I would prefer to limit intelligent outsiders to near and abouts the nearest tech level. Well-heeled orcs attacking out of a desert would need some origin, and for me that origin would mean another kingdom we created like Jawanda, somewhere in the hinterland, which would in turn establish the tech level of the orcs. Smaller parties, however, say 15-30, can be allowed to move as interlopers between established kingdoms, as serves us to create a good adventure for the players.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-87862812725775829792017-05-04T18:01:48.690-06:002017-05-04T18:01:48.690-06:00Damn, but I hate working.
Others have answered qu...Damn, but I hate working.<br /><br />Others have answered questions near enough to my own answers, and I am grateful. I shall chime in, however, and say where. Then I shall pick up on the questions that were asked that did not receive answers.<br /><br />Joey, as LTW, Ozymandias and Pandred have answered, the D&D game does not need a progression in the tech level. We're not representing a world history or a simulation here, we're creating a nuanced setting with detailed, unique technology backdrops which can both serve as a limitation, as Oz said, and also as a distinct game experience separate from the usual homogeneous soup which describes every setting in existence. By stating that these things are not available at this tech, we force players to make do in ways that games rarely demand: this in turn creates an appreciation for higher tech levels, which permits a greater sense of luxury and comfort when visiting those levels after having experienced the dregs of places like Jawanda.<br /><br />LTW, as Drain answered, the reason for going to Jawanda would be for adventure. Perhaps for the dungeons in the desert, perhaps for the purpose of obtaining wisdom from a solitary individual who can explain the origin of the massive head, perhaps for an ingredient for a potion or the head of an odd animal as a punishment quest, etcetera. I could also add that Jawanda could be an origin for a party, if it was so agreed, just as Stavanger was an agreed-upon origin place for the online Juvenis party. I know that most people would not choose such an origin, but it IS possible.<br /><br />Finally, who is to say that Jawanda won't be conquered for the sake of its tribute by a high level party someday? I don't like an adventure concept that says a high-tech group shows up and makes the party's life difficult, but I don't dismiss the PARTY deciding to do what they want. Agency, always.<br />Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-44871933992452816042017-05-04T17:36:10.124-06:002017-05-04T17:36:10.124-06:00@Drain: Yes, I agree forgotten ruins and such will...@Drain: Yes, I agree forgotten ruins and such will attract parties. I was wondering if I was missing the obvious besides altruism, exploration, or treasure. Each worthy goals for a party, treasure being my parties preferred reward.LTWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280926541054573911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-63982393966681255392017-05-04T17:09:47.467-06:002017-05-04T17:09:47.467-06:00The tech levels are based on population density.
...The tech levels are based on population density.<br /><br />There's a whole series of posts from 2015 that go into it.<br />The way then, that I assume tech would increase is by an increase in population, which would advance (since the "technologies" here are in many ways social constructs like Feudalism or Currency) the area accordingly.<br />I'll be really honest though when I say I don't see much reason to think very hard about advancement. If everything increases in tech whenever the players work to increase a given region, then what exactly did they gain by trying to advance it?<br />I know Alexis has been playing a very long time. How long, in game time, have his parties gone? I would actually be surprised if that timespan exceeded a hundred years, the sort of time that might require thinking about the advancement of tech.Pandredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03917809464727878157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-1698163398290424422017-05-04T16:25:40.490-06:002017-05-04T16:25:40.490-06:00Joey, I agree with your reasoning that tech levels...Joey, I agree with your reasoning that tech levels will travel over time. I think it's important to understand that the "time" involved is likely to be several hundred years or more. It's also important that we establish a base tech level when fleshing out a new region. For my own purposes, I'm applying Alexis' technique to a pre-conceived world: I'm starting with a map drawn by someone else and I'm "zooming in," as it were, to the local level (5-mile hex) and populating it with random details. Before I get into those details, however, I look to the larger region and make some assumptions, like, which race is living there, whether there's already a large city/trade center nearby, what the likelihood of certain resources is, etc. Granted, I can do this because I'm working from a published world so I have material I can reference. In the case of a completely new and random world... I dunno, maybe you'd have to do something similar like making certain decisions at a regional level, then closing in and deciding other details.<br /><br />Regardless, I think one of the takeaways from these posts might be: limitations are good. Limits and constraints help to establish the status quo, which is something the players can act for or against.Ozymandiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01065642299277380465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-65531679631257890302017-05-04T16:00:18.305-06:002017-05-04T16:00:18.305-06:00Alexis, this is a great post; interesting historic...Alexis, this is a great post; interesting historic underscoring to your argument and plenty of food for thought.<br /><br />@LTW: presumably, you go there to explore the buried ruins dating from before the whole area became desertified.Drainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09724863160300686402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-23665415785712786622017-05-04T12:45:33.160-06:002017-05-04T12:45:33.160-06:00If we assume the game is taking place over the per...If we assume the game is taking place over the period of a few years to a generation then we can assume that tech levels will stay relatively static. There could be outlying situations. <br /><br />My question is, aside from a starting location (which would mean a party of fighters), why would party ever want to go to a tech-5 area? Like higher tech civilizations, I am having trouble coming up with reasons why a party would venture to tech-5.LTWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280926541054573911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-72134589016710091962017-05-04T11:55:46.707-06:002017-05-04T11:55:46.707-06:00I see two an unresolved relationship between two s...I see two an unresolved relationship between two seemingly conflicting premises in your post. The first is your comparison of West Virginia and Washington D.C. over time. Following your logic there, the tech level of West Virginia increases over time, just not as it does in Washington. The other is the premise that a region is inherently a certain tech level due to its exploitable resources. That would seem to imply that it would never increase in tech level. <br /><br />We can presume that some bleeding of tech will <i>eventually</i> take place based on the first premise, but how do we determine what conditions will cause that to happen, and then how do we denote that the natural conditions of the area are a certain tech level, but that currently it is at a different level?Joey Bennetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14153029890706822967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-20705424778493329432017-05-04T11:48:50.849-06:002017-05-04T11:48:50.849-06:00A question just occurred to me, but what about the...A question just occurred to me, but what about the humanoids who live in the wild areas of these zones? Do they share the technological levels? Is their tech level based on their INT, or on the relative density of their hex?<br /><br />I'm uncertain if you use your Hex Generator for anything but determining the overall Hex Type any longer, but interested in how this effects your placement of "uncivilised" tribes, especially in the context of a civilisation this far down the tech levels to begin with.Pandredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03917809464727878157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-80885244567429467412017-05-03T17:34:13.987-06:002017-05-03T17:34:13.987-06:00I should also point out that most worlds are homog...I should also point out that most worlds are homogenous in the extreme. That is the problem. Propose a region without tech and the immediate response is to rush to the trope of a more advanced culture rushing in and taking over - even though there are far more examples of this not happening before 1800 than happening. In fact, there are many examples of the reverse, with aggressive, lower tech cultures destroying a soft, pampered higher tech culture with less motivation. <br /><br />As I have said many times, we must stop thinking we are talking about post-industrial geopolitics. That's what I mean when I say stretch your minds.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-27097647076594260802017-05-03T16:14:39.230-06:002017-05-03T16:14:39.230-06:00Unless the region is very tiny. Unless the region is very tiny. Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-36245849347176113502017-05-03T16:00:05.912-06:002017-05-03T16:00:05.912-06:00Does this mean that by assigning a lower tech leve...Does this mean that by assigning a lower tech level, we're committing the region to a state of fewer resources?<br /><br />If so, it makes a certain sort of sense. Why would a region with exploitable resources have such a low population? Most D&D games take place in a Renaissance-like era, and most have several intelligent humanoid races all vying for control, so the likelihood of any region possessing lots of resources but not a lot of people should be pretty low...Ozymandiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01065642299277380465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-77315045942707357212017-05-03T10:44:48.513-06:002017-05-03T10:44:48.513-06:00Understood, perhaps; but not thinking it through. ...Understood, perhaps; but not thinking it through. If Jawanda was on the way to somewhere, it would have a higher tech, because that would be valuable! But as it is tech-5, your suppositions are groundless. Each time you try to make an argument by supposing new facts, you ignore the premise.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-37249900195936592372017-05-03T10:25:20.316-06:002017-05-03T10:25:20.316-06:00I read and understood every word. Nevermind, clea...I read and understood every word. Nevermind, clearly I have nothing to contribute here. Sofia Viktorova Kolevahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04274559794233411590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-51278875837140433242017-05-03T10:22:28.833-06:002017-05-03T10:22:28.833-06:00You say "next door" like this is relevan...You say "next door" like this is relevant. I just gave a bunch of examples of how West Virginia being "next door" to urban Pennsylvania doesn't mean a thing.<br /><br />Ships cost money. Crews cost money. If you're going to outlay all that money, you're going to go somewhere that has something to trade, right? You've completely ignored everything I said in the post, the examples I gave, etcetera. You're just not getting it.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-50369742107307488262017-05-03T10:16:01.511-06:002017-05-03T10:16:01.511-06:00With the last post, I was asked about foreigners a...<i>With the last post, I was asked about foreigners arriving in the fictional Jawanda interested in trading for slaves. I would ask in response, why would they go there...How rational is that? It costs money to build boats and fund soldiers to go get slaves. Would it not make more sense to bypass Jawanda and go to another place with more food production and more people? </i><br /><br />But wouldn't the lack of population, technology, institutions, etc... inherent in Jawanda make it particularly susceptible for exploitation? You ask why would the ship arrive in the first place but you yourself point out the higher tech society that produced the ship and its crew could be literally right next door. Or, Jawanda could simply be between two more noteworthy places separated by some distance and therefore only convenient. Columbus didn't mean to land in the New World, but taking slaves was among the first things he did when he got there. Sofia Viktorova Kolevahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04274559794233411590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-4920049855977729402017-05-03T10:00:14.736-06:002017-05-03T10:00:14.736-06:00The examples you give here of the real world histo...The examples you give here of the real world history which form the underpinnings of your Tech level system are excellent. <br />Thank you.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12793781986788315513noreply@blogger.com