tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post8265841663126362425..comments2023-10-14T03:58:59.333-06:00Comments on The Tao of D&D: Living In The Real WorldAlexis Smolenskhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-41343252279406891552013-05-13T09:06:37.874-06:002013-05-13T09:06:37.874-06:00Yeah, I hated that sentence as soon as I put it do...Yeah, I hated that sentence as soon as I put it down. If I were editing this as a book, I'd have rewritten that thing.<br /><br />May I point out, your highness; this above is a first draft, spun out without much effort at pretty close to 50 words a minute.<br /><br />One would hope that the writers of the canon above had written several drafts, as I have, and that they've had editors - which incidentally, for my book Pete's Garage, I did not.<br /><br />Yet people still seem to think it was really well written.<br /><br />It may be easy to be a critic in the sense that you describe ... but that's not actually relevant here.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-45906003026162005742013-05-13T07:57:45.732-06:002013-05-13T07:57:45.732-06:00"Which doesn't change the fact that there..."Which doesn't change the fact that there are many of the above canon that I cannot read for reasons I've named"<br /><br />Which doesn't change the fact that there are many of the above canon that I cannot read THEM for THE reasons WHICH I've ALREADY named.<br /><br />Your writing is actually pretty poor as well. You see, it's easy to be a critic. It's the easiest thing in the world.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-5433010847717688932013-05-11T17:25:14.543-06:002013-05-11T17:25:14.543-06:00Don Quixote, Gargantua and Pantagruel, The Golden ...Don Quixote, Gargantua and Pantagruel, The Golden Ass, The Satyricon: Fanastic literature. Maybe Baum is great, I really don't know. <br />Vance's Anome trilogy substantively destroys the entire Moorecock corpus. -Ha hahh!Kirk Nachmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03166276704512053376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-12807591311043980552013-05-11T08:47:06.840-06:002013-05-11T08:47:06.840-06:00My apologies. I found it on the web labeled under...My apologies. I found it on the web labeled under Lovecraft. I did not single it out, as I took from the first thing I found.<br /><br />Which doesn't change the fact that there are many of the above canon that I cannot read for reasons I've named. Not as "straw men" but simply unbearable.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-31235372531333637192013-05-11T05:20:13.729-06:002013-05-11T05:20:13.729-06:00Turning to your actual point, it seems you are pro...Turning to your actual point, it seems you are promoting "good" literature as that which is tragic in essence. The sort where the reader can grasp the motivations, can understand the decisions, can understand the consequences ... but really wants to look away because the character-driven plot is grindingly predictable and dismaying. These are the sorts of work that are not mere escape, but can drive some introspection in the reader.<br /><br />For fine contemporary examples of this in the "fantasy" genre, I would nod to serialized TV such as Once Upon a Time, Being Human, or Sons of Anarchy. In recent books I can't think of much, except perhaps Lev Grossman's "The Magicians" (his sequel, The Magician King, falls short).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-76416679037194984702013-05-11T05:09:00.649-06:002013-05-11T05:09:00.649-06:00Your exemplar prize fight correspondence comes fro...Your exemplar prize fight correspondence comes from Howard, not from Lovecraft. And as its title ("The Battle that Ended the Century") might indicate, the piece was written - for a junior college lit mag - as deliberate parody of crap reportage.<br /><br />Usually (even today) admire your thoughts and writing, but in this case, you singled out a strawman dressed in a clown suit and mocked the farmer's fashion sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-74597716711297858022013-05-10T12:33:00.921-06:002013-05-10T12:33:00.921-06:00LOL.
Yeah, well you had me. The set my parents o...LOL.<br /><br />Yeah, well you had me. The set my parents owned had four books, which are the ones I read. I had forgotten there were others.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-34747661009096184882013-05-10T12:31:16.577-06:002013-05-10T12:31:16.577-06:00Thanks for pulling my leg, Alexis. I was starting ...Thanks for pulling my leg, Alexis. I was starting to get a cramp.F. Douglas Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06497140550892192807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-75070894510787574482013-05-10T11:10:32.556-06:002013-05-10T11:10:32.556-06:00Actually, F. Douglas Wall, I meant the OTHER Frank...Actually, F. Douglas Wall, I meant the OTHER Frank Baum, from Montana, who wrote the OTHER Wizard of Oz and four books total.<br /><br />I'm surprised you hadn't realized that.<br /><br />Still, you seemed to leap to an immediate assumption about whom you thought I meant, so I guess I wasn't as obscure as I was trying to be.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-84048291810229422512013-05-10T10:35:42.396-06:002013-05-10T10:35:42.396-06:00I was surprised that you made the mistake of leavi...I was surprised that you made the mistake of leaving off L. Frank Baum's initial. It's a rather common mistake. As is putting the initial in the middle of his name and writing it Frank L. Baum.<br /><br />Also, L. Frank Baum wrote more than 4 books about Oz. He actually wrote 14 novels in the Oz series. And that's not counting his shorter Oz works, his non-Oz writing, and the Oz books written at the behest of his publisher after his death.F. Douglas Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06497140550892192807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-39015606737818714572013-05-10T08:08:28.581-06:002013-05-10T08:08:28.581-06:00I am old enough by now that I feel free to be chil...I am old enough by now that I feel free to be childish. Admittedly, I can get through mediocre writing for a good story, so easily that I have some trouble recognizing good writing these days.<br /><br />For an example, I highly enjoy Jim Butcher's books, despite them not being high literature, so to say.<br /><br />I cannot agree with categorizing fantasy fiction as juvenile, though - even if it may just be a disagreement on the meaning of terms. I cannot parse 'juvenile' in non-insulting manner, for an example.<br /><br />But, definitely, you don't need fantasy background for DnD - in fact, it's better if you get your ideas elsewhere - movies and video games, for an example - movies for plots and games for encounters and scenarios.<br /><br />I don't find genre-boxing to be very productive in general, but if I must, I see fantasy as a subgenre of escapist fiction, and space opera as a subgenre of fantasy, for an example. Trappings of fantasy, such as wizards and dragons and whatnot, do not as such, make a fantasy story. Esa Karjalainenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18282643122207642987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-72789054237902783112013-05-09T16:27:57.897-06:002013-05-09T16:27:57.897-06:00Every entertaining tale_spinner is not by virtue a...Every entertaining tale_spinner is not by virtue a great or even good writer, some folks have touble dealing with that. <br />JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-73723566938816961052013-05-09T15:30:52.894-06:002013-05-09T15:30:52.894-06:00Quentin,
Perhaps someday you will come to underst...Quentin,<br /><br />Perhaps someday you will come to understand that phenomenology and ontology, in the larger scheme of things, are not really that important. Perhaps you'll one day realize the irrelavancies in distinguishing the difference between 'magic' and 'magick.'<br /><br />In the meantime, I simply don't see where your opinion matters any more than my opinion, nor in how your having one makes mine false. Of course this is my opinion. And of course you have one of your own. Stating it, I'm afraid, really isn't very important to me.<br /><br />See ... I'm not reading your blog. I'm writing mine. You've come here seeking my opinion. I haven't gone seeking yours. So when you bring your opinion to the party, to change my mind (which seems to be your intent), then its a good idea to offer more than just the opposite of what I've said.<br /><br />I apologize. I'm bitter of late. Seems there's a proliferation of fucktards on the blog comment boards of late, who have nothing good to say about me but wouldn't even know I exist except they all used to read me daily. So just now, I'm somewhat sour on people thinking this blog is a personal platform for their views. It isn't. I believe in free speech, but I also believe that if you're here to read me, then you're prepared to have enough of an open mind to think, first and foremost, "Hey, I wonder what he's onto, and why he thinks that way," rather than, "Fuck is he wrong, I think I'll write and say so."<br /><br />Been a lot of the latter of late. And just now you look like one of that ilk. So if you just can't wait to tell me how wrong I am about this - without quoting a single demonstrable fact in your comment - then just go read another blog where the owner isn't a self-righteous, mean-spirited, miserable misanthropic prick.<br /><br />All in all, you'd be happier.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-57648342993468355542013-05-09T15:17:54.033-06:002013-05-09T15:17:54.033-06:00Lin Carter certainly loved it: "...the single...Lin Carter certainly loved it: <i>"...the single finest fantasy novel written in our time, or for that matter, ever written, is, and must be, by any conceivable standard, T.H. White's <b>The Once and Future King...</b>"</i><br /><br />I guess. The fact that White was a terrific wordsmith is hardly in question; but I've already mentioned that several of the others are really, really good writers.<br /><br />Frankly, it waffled for me and I found myself putting it down. It also seemed to start a craze of King Arthur rewrites that still go on, and on, and on. It certainly wouldn't hurt someone to read it, or that set of books by Mary Stewart that started with the Crystal Cave.<br /><br />I really don't think it's going to open anyone's eyes up to the way humanity treats humanity.<br /><br />But hey, this is just me. The point I wanted to make was the one you've agreed with, James - that there's more to D&D than the Gygax approved list.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-68944060702705787242013-05-09T15:12:53.600-06:002013-05-09T15:12:53.600-06:00I believe that you are missing your own point, act...I believe that you are missing your own point, actually, since in your post "Definitions" you yourself endeavoured to enunciate a definition of your own. Since I was interested in what <i>you</i> meant by fantasy, and not in what is <i>generally</i> meant by fantasy, I asked the question.<br /><br />As for fantasy being juvenile, I disagree. Arguing whether magic, or magick lies within the realm of what is real is probably vain as one can only rely upon empirical evidences to decide it. Arguing whether magick lies within the realm of what is true however, breeds questions of phenomenology and ontology, questions that I tend to consider serious. I would also point out that most works of fantasy feature magic, without necessarily being about it. Which is why I disagree with you that fantasy fails in its thematics.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16922452975669962790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-17073692869299940792013-05-09T15:08:37.180-06:002013-05-09T15:08:37.180-06:00I certainly never said they weren't artists. ...I certainly never said they weren't artists. And my book <i>Pete's Garage</i> certainly isn't anything except a fantasy book, mostly escapist, with a few slightly examined deeper themes. There's absolutely nothing wrong with reading or writing fantasy, or being identified as an artist for doing so. I certainly can't duplicate the sort of work R.E. Howard did.<br /><br />I resist the idea, however, that they are AMAZING gods of literature, whom everyone ought to read - which is bunk - or that in some way they're anything except artists providing escape for the reader. I also resist any sentiment that if you're going to play D&D, you must read and learn from these writers. That is such bullshit ... but it is the bullshit with which I started this post. There are a lot of non-fantasy authors who will give you the exact same thing as the fantastical writers with regards to the game - just as you argue that Roth is giving you.<br /><br />I think what the more serious authors offer is what Arduin touched on - characters you don't like. Characters who have motivations you wouldn't normally understand, or want to understand, because they are so hateful. To use the example from film, to make it more accessible, Darth Vader is a real clown of a villain compared to someone like Mrs. Robinson.<br /><br />The White Witch has none of the nuanced brutality of Brett Ashley from <i>The Sun Also Rises.</i> Characters like the Wicked Witch of the West, Saruman or Voldemort are convenient paper cut-outs, at best, without blood or anything remotely like the understandable cruelty of Rochester, who keeps his mad wife hidden in the attic because he knows not what else to do with her. Nor do the heroes of fantasy comprehend the happiness that Sidney Carton obtains, nor the helpless failure of Wang Lung.<br /><br />Nuance. Life is in the nuance.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-1754223662562734422013-05-09T14:55:18.121-06:002013-05-09T14:55:18.121-06:00How about The Once and Future King? That's got...How about <i>The Once and Future King</i>? That's gotta make the cut for both fantasy and literature, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-77118155751877662472013-05-09T14:49:46.941-06:002013-05-09T14:49:46.941-06:00To your last point above, yes. The real jist here...To your last point above, yes. The real jist here is that a deeper game of D&D can be informed beyond appendix N. I was only standing up to the notion of the "fantasy literary ghetto". <br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-31026372437212833262013-05-09T14:44:36.792-06:002013-05-09T14:44:36.792-06:00I guess one could call Roth's book speculative...I guess one could call Roth's book speculative fiction or alternate history, then, but these are publishing terms for people concerned with publishing things and I admittedly pay them little mind. <br /><br />As a reader, though, what appealed to me about it are the same things I like in good fantasy. For one, a deeply considered world that never was constructed to say something about the world that is. <br /><br />The others I mentioned I think are fantasy writers by stricter definitions. I can't really speak about what constitutes serious course work as I have never undertaken it as it pertains to literature. But you tell me, what do the writers I mentioned not offer that more <i>serious</i> writers do? Am I lacking in sensitivity and/ or education or merely preconception when I call them artists?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-72836801964047441322013-05-09T14:32:26.078-06:002013-05-09T14:32:26.078-06:00To answer your other question, James,
Where the n...To answer your other question, James,<br /><br />Where the novel IS fantasy as defined by Wikipedia, then no, I haven't seen a meaningful theme in anything written recently. Generally, neither has anyone else. The fantasy course that was taught in my university was very taken up with things like <i>Frankenstein</i>, <i>Dracula</i>, <i>Lady of the Lake</i> and a variety of other 19th century literists like Poe and Wells. <i>Narnia</i> was discussed, but the prof I remember did not think much of it, since the heavy-handed religiousity of the book annoyed him. That's an opinion, of course ... but I've never found much in <i>Narnia</i> to excite me either, whereas the aforementioned <i>Anna Karenina</i> struck me as, well, "real."<br /><br />I'm not convinced I'm going to learn a lot more about myself from further reading of the nominal gods of fantasy writing, whereas I do believe I'm better aware of how to handle my player's sentiments by reading someone who ISN'T fantastical ... Roth, for example, as you suggest.<br /><br />Alan Moore? No, probably not.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-48622807919291250682013-05-09T14:23:00.541-06:002013-05-09T14:23:00.541-06:00Don't misunderstand me. I haven't anythin...Don't misunderstand me. I haven't anything against Philip Roth or Alan Moore ... but there's a reason they're not taught in serious coursework. I grant that in many cases, the worshipped writers I mentioned in the post come short because of their quality, but the final point I made was that the failing is thematic.<br /><br />You, no doubt, are well aware that the press and literary community gushed over The Plot Against America upon its release. The Times called it "a genuinely American story." I haven't read it.<br /><br />Apart from the fact that it didn't happen, and that many of the events in the novel didn't occur, however, how is this 'fantasy'? I mean, in a way that <i>Moby Dick</i>, <i>Robinson Crusoe</i>, <i>The Moonstone</i> or, say, the events of either Shakespeare's <i>Julius Caesar</i> or Shaw's <i>Caesar and Cleopatra</i> didn't happen (certainly we have no evidence for many of the scenes of either play). IF we're going to weaken the reach and limits of "fantasy" to stuff that didn't happen, that are conceived of wholly in the author's imagination, then I rescind all my comments and every opinion on this post. IF that's the definition you care to render.<br /><br />"Fantasy"- which I can look up on-line (whereas apparently Quentin cannot, and needs me to look it up for him, which he clearly doesn't understand is my trouble with his queries), dwells in the 'fantastical' ... that is, in terms of <i>"magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary plot element, theme or setting."</i> (Wikipedia) I don't see any magical or supernatural elements in the plot synopsis of Philip Roth's book. Nor am I aware of Roth ever using such elements. Perhaps I am missing something?Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-75222722743932485022013-05-09T13:51:45.116-06:002013-05-09T13:51:45.116-06:00All novels are fantasy. All fiction is speculativ...All novels are fantasy. All fiction is speculative. Your beef is just with bad writing, I think.<br /><br />Obviously many of the mentioned writers get the attention because of the DMG's appendix N and its lasting effect on a certain sort of person from a certain generation. I've read half that shit and I'll admit to still mostly enjoying it, but yes... Leo Tolstoy it ain't.<br /><br />But setting aside Gygax's list of pet authoers fantasy literature isn't quite the ghetto you makeit out to be, is it? What about Alan Moore, Stephen Millhauser, Michael Chabon and Neil Gaiman? What about Philip Roth's <i>The Plot Against America</i> or probably several other works one could reasonably classify as fantasy but that clearly have artistic intent if not merit or purpose beyond just escapism. <br /><br />Would you agree that its not that fantasy <i>can't</i> be literature, it's just that <i>most</i> writing isn't literature and one could therefore pick on any genre and any era?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-62617850176336929492013-05-09T13:21:36.403-06:002013-05-09T13:21:36.403-06:00I like reading your blog. If you don't like my...I like reading your blog. If you don't like my contributing, such as it is, I will of course cease to do it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16922452975669962790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-856040089766890482013-05-09T13:11:33.600-06:002013-05-09T13:11:33.600-06:00Quentin,
Perhaps you should read another blog.Quentin,<br /><br />Perhaps you should read another blog.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-73883072304000579362013-05-09T13:08:05.051-06:002013-05-09T13:08:05.051-06:00Do you mean in your post ? Or somewhere else on yo...Do you mean in your post ? Or somewhere else on your blog ? Because if it's the former, I see agree that relying on severed limbs makes a work of fiction juvenile, but I don't see what it has to do with fantasy (with many works of fantasy, yes, but not with the "genre" itself.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16922452975669962790noreply@blogger.com