tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post6227536767744466065..comments2023-10-14T03:58:59.333-06:00Comments on The Tao of D&D: Everything is a RoadAlexis Smolenskhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-14724871315925276352017-12-21T05:42:34.255-07:002017-12-21T05:42:34.255-07:00I think, when people complain about a railroad, th...I think, when people complain about a railroad, they are complaining about the fact that they cannot pick their destination, nor the path they run through - they can only choose whether to look at the scenery or their phones. <br />Archonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718160700690722856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-22918457805384203332017-12-18T13:16:25.898-07:002017-12-18T13:16:25.898-07:00Just making Charles' link easier to click:
ht...Just making Charles' link easier to click:<br /><br /><a href="http://spellsandsteel.blogspot.ca/2017/12/railroads-vs-sandboxes.html?m=1" rel="nofollow">http://spellsandsteel.blogspot.ca/2017/12/railroads-vs-sandboxes.html?m=1</a>Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-35302019767558859372017-12-18T12:58:14.201-07:002017-12-18T12:58:14.201-07:00This is interesting food for thought, but I don...This is interesting food for thought, but I don't know that you've sold me on such a broad definition of a railroad. I do think you're on to something, here, I'm not exactly sure what, but I have a feeling that you're uncovering a big rock and we're only seeing a piece of it.<br /><br />I don't think it's the difference between a railroad and a sandbox, though. I wrote a longer reply on that disagreement, but put it in my own blog to keep the comments here more focused: http://spellsandsteel.blogspot.ca/2017/12/railroads-vs-sandboxes.html?m=1Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-25283631380524499872017-12-18T08:49:27.979-07:002017-12-18T08:49:27.979-07:00Alexis, your deeper examination of this is worthy....Alexis, your deeper examination of this is worthy.<br /><br />The sandbox style of play that is typically described brings to mind more of a petting zoo... lots of animals to interact with, some come to you, some are disinterested, some run away and planty of shit to step,in if you are not careful.<br /><br /><br />So, the motivational goals of the players ideally set the type of play and the type of game presented: explore, puzzle solve, conquer, rob, intrigue... DM provides the landscape and antagonist interaction. <br />Less free game the GM sets goals and method/path to success. More free opens more to player. <br /><br />Looking forward to how you progress with this.<br />Kkimbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12961382206655820923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-71591118086829427882017-12-17T23:49:00.305-07:002017-12-17T23:49:00.305-07:00As a native Californian, we drive every where and ...As a native Californian, we drive every where and measure distance by how long it would take to get there. I bring this up because, I feel the perfect metaphor for what I think you are talking about would be a network of highways and freeways, with the dm being a chauffeur. You get on the freeway at one point follow along for awhile, party decides it wants to something else, take this exit or that interchange, end on a dusty road in the middle of nowhere, whatever.Keltoihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13009157588474586885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-80890541095723856492017-12-17T21:29:36.018-07:002017-12-17T21:29:36.018-07:00Samuel,
Regarding the quote about drama vs. adve...Samuel, <br /><br />Regarding the quote about drama vs. adventure: I was emphasizing that when we normally speak of "character-driven plots", we don't mean adventures like Indiana Jones and the Age of Ultron. We mean films like Regarding Henry or Slumdog Millionaire, where the plot revolves around individuals reconciling what they believe and suffer with the ordinary, everyday, believable choices that every person has to make, regardless of their station in life. I'm highlighting that those people who insist that RPGs are about "characters" have a strange idea what makes a character-driven plot, compared with everyone else's definition.<br /><br />Sandbox gameplay could be smaller, or larger, than village scale. It could be anything. I think you give a good example. Here are some others.<br /><br />Do you recall the series I did on starting a trade town? There was very little adventure in that - mostly, it was problems. What to build, who to get permission from, who to hire, how much to gather, how to encourage people to invest and so on. Problems, yes, but not go-and-get-this, or fight-this, or learn-this-clue. More like, let's try this and see if it gets a result. Let's push all the sand up into a hill and see how high a hill we can make before it collapses.<br /><br />Do you remember an old video game called ZooTycoon? Here are your animals, here are your cage types, here's your options for selling stuff to your guests, here are your costs, here's your income ... now arrange things so that you make the highest profits with the best organization for the least number of zookeepers and custodians to manage the animals, without the people getting hungry, thirsty or tired. Go. Do your best.<br /><br />That latter is definitely a sandbox. Set number of tools, limitations on options, endless, uncertain possibilities based on the manner in which you distribute your resources.<br /><br />D&D could create that. Or recreate a systematic war campaign to conquer a foreign country. Or anything that we're prepared to develop rules to cover. <br /><br />Without, I'll rush to point out, having to translate those rules into code.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-31351063748664551852017-12-17T20:57:04.990-07:002017-12-17T20:57:04.990-07:00"Like a drama, rather than an adventure, our ..."Like a drama, rather than an adventure, our characters would sit around and talk, discuss, figure out who we like, what we want to stop, what the meaning of life is and so on ... and get really, really involved in characterization."<br /><br />This really interests me, but I don't think I totally understand it. Perhaps because I have always thought of DnD as a game about adventures. I would like to hear more about what the experience of getting involved in characterization is like compared to what is experienced the "flexible adventures" you have described on the blog.<br /><br />The mechanics of the game do a lot to support games that revolve around acquisition and survival. This mechanical core of the game seems to push adventure-type play. Do you think that a different focus in play style needs certain different mechanical elements? I know you are working on a system that describes human communities, tying together their economies, culture, health. That combined with the idea of "figuring out who we like, what we want to stop" makes me think of a political endeavor. <br /><br />But I guess sandbox gameplay could be focused on something smaller than village-scale. I'm thinking of gardening, which, described as an adventure, would sound something like "First we slew the weeds, then we hunted down the seeds of the elusive heirloom tomatoes, next we fought off waves of pests and went on a quest for water during the drought. Then at last we hauled off the juicy red fruit!". But a lot of the problem solving involved in gardening isn't so directly about "will I get a crop, or will my plants DIE?", but has more to do with "what sort of crop do I want, what crop is suited to this piece of land, this climate, how do I balance those against each other?" and then after doing that in one spot for some years developing a relationship with the specific bit of land and the seasons, which feeds back into the questions. <br /><br />Summing up, maybe one is about getting something (tomatoes), and the other is about tinkering with something, rebuilding it (the garden plan and purpose)? Anyway, your post has prompted a lot of thought, and I look forward to reading more on this subject!Samuel Kernanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17745996634604734121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-51972651907009877462017-12-17T20:35:03.870-07:002017-12-17T20:35:03.870-07:00And my final comment,
"Having shifted my thi...And my final comment,<br /><br />"Having shifted my thinking on railroad away from forcing prisoners into boxcars, letting it include the careful, free choice to get aboard an excursion car and see the country, then I don't have to be disparaging about railroads (I don't have to redefine the term, either, as Colville does, so that I can feel better about myself). I can see the railroad for what it is: a link between sandboxes. A link that lets us carry resources from one sandbox to the next. The problem, until now, is that we've been so obsessed with the journey, we've missed the point of the destination."<br />Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-13272105276732213412017-12-17T20:34:40.026-07:002017-12-17T20:34:40.026-07:00And my response to Carl, the author,
"Yes! W...And my response to Carl, the author,<br /><br />"Yes! We're on the same page, going the same direction. Your point is the stronger: that the key to the sandbox campaign is elucidating the world's properties to the player, so that the player can reshape those properties to produce the desired effect or created thing. And that is the holy grail.<br /><br />Regarding your last point, sandbox vs. railroad. Consider this as a measure. We're only running railroads. Surely, a railroad AND a sandbox, together, is better than railroad alone. There's no danger of our only running a sandbox, because we have so many examples of railroad that we can fall into the latter as easily as a pool of water.<br /><br />Therefore, the better game isn't the sandbox. The better game is the one that includes the sandbox, the extra feature, over and above the feature that already exists."<br /><br />And Carl's answer,<br /><br />"Holy shitsnacks, you're right! It's not that a story-driven game (or a railroad) is a bad thing, it's that it's lacking the potential of a sandbox. And that's partly why we get people who argue that it's possible to have a good railroad game: those games have elements of the freedom and autonomy that a sandbox provides."Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-5061257298094788422017-12-17T20:33:10.980-07:002017-12-17T20:33:10.980-07:00Let me add some details that have come to light on...Let me add some details that have come to light on my facebook page (hey, look for me on facebook, good conversations about these blog posts arise).<br /><br />Read this post from 'Crossing the Verse:<br /><br /><a href="https://crossingtheverse.wordpress.com/2017/12/17/vs/" rel="nofollow">https://crossingtheverse.wordpress.com/2017/12/17/vs/</a>Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-8107646230276735732017-12-17T18:29:28.149-07:002017-12-17T18:29:28.149-07:00I'm working on the problem intellectually. Do...I'm working on the problem intellectually. Don't want to rush. I do think there's room for dismantling the adventure format, but I'm not sure at the moment how to contain it in a post.<br /><br />Here's my short-handed thinking; managing a keep, without the DM constantly trying to put the keep in danger of invaders, instant-add-water monsters, or a dozen other distracting hooks, is much akin to a real sandbox, isn't it? Note that I didn't say a sandbox isn't about solving problems; it just isn't about solving out-of-box problems. If you decide, as I often did, to build a bridge of sand, then that's a problem that has to be solved - and as we experimented that way as children, we fascinated ourselves for hours. Is there not room for contemplation in that direction?Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-57303116872171427262017-12-17T18:04:12.673-07:002017-12-17T18:04:12.673-07:00This has certainly stirred up some poignant though...This has certainly stirred up some poignant thoughts about what the common terminology we use to refer to rpg concepts actually means, but I'll have to confess that I'm not wholly sure what the takeaway to all of this is supposed to be. I suppose that you're correct that Coleville is giving bad advice for running a sandbox insofar that he's giving advice for running an open-ended adventure instead of the "true" railroad concept you're touching on here, but given that hardly anyone is looking run (or play in) campaigns nearly as open ended as what the platonic ideal of a sandbox would actually look like, is it actually bad advice for running a game? <br /><br />You're pretty spot on in your characterization of Coleville as a guy who uses a lot of words to declare that water is wet, and here he uses a lot of words to ultimately declare that a GM should allow his players freedom in approaching the challenges he presents them. Is the very act of presenting challenges for the players as they pursue a goal fundamentally closer to a railroad than a sandbox? I've certainly been convinced this is the case, but all I've really been able to get out of that is that the terminology we use in our community to describe these things are ultimately pretty useless - but unless you're suggesting we should be aiming to eschew the structure of adventures altogether (which I don't think you're doing?) I'm not sure if I'd necessarily say Coleville is teaching any particularly poor form, here.DropOwlBearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02782332760235185081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-16276855480782012962017-12-17T14:01:50.286-07:002017-12-17T14:01:50.286-07:00Really interesting stuff here. As you note, I don&...Really interesting stuff here. As you note, I don't think any players want a *true* sandbox game, because they will inevitably set up their own railroads because there will be destinations they wish to reach.<br /><br />But maybe, we can say that the games you want to run are ones that actually allow the players to make their own railroads, by giving them sufficient information to make intelligent and meaningful decisions within the context of the created world? At least, that was what I have always felt the purpose of your trade systems* and tech systems were.<br /><br />And I think calling that kind of game a sandbox, versus the traditional "railroad" of "DM sets up an obstacle, players knock down obstacle" would mesh with what others mean when they say "sandbox." <br /><br />*As an aside, I had repurposed much of your trade system for my game world, to some good results. It has actively led to players making decisions based on it. So thanks for that. Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02846071799831004752noreply@blogger.com