tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post2311276378525928413..comments2023-10-14T03:58:59.333-06:00Comments on The Tao of D&D: Fridge Logic & DungeonsAlexis Smolenskhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-61630613542371299442014-03-26T21:04:28.557-06:002014-03-26T21:04:28.557-06:00* Trophies to show how good they are at killing su...* Trophies to show how good they are at killing surface dwellers.<br />* A borrowed economy to buy things from other Orc/Goblin tribes as well as for trading amongst themselves (and as mentioned to buy off the bandits from time to time).<br />* Leftovers discarded with the bones, equipment, and inedible parts inevitably have a purse of money that is unnoticed by trolls and other dumb creatures.<br /><br />None of these explain a Dragon's love for gold but then St Tolkien said they love the stuff and a million acolytes said Amen, they do, and it was done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-26450671177149301802013-02-11T19:47:00.490-07:002013-02-11T19:47:00.490-07:00The idea that monsters would have to recognize coi...The idea that monsters would have to recognize coins as money in order to collect them may be off-base somewhat. Packrats (only mammal I can think of right now) and several species of birds collect shiny objects for their nests and to attract mates... maybe THAT behavior came first for us, too?!Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10231423670489116607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-89907676385871666902013-02-07T15:21:43.266-07:002013-02-07T15:21:43.266-07:00I agree with JBeltman's reasoning. Very well ...I agree with JBeltman's reasoning. Very well put forth, sir. Also, props to Strixy, for thinking like a monster.<br /><br />Love this post, Alex. It's a good challenge to something all of us kind of take as "standard" even though it makes no sense.<br /><br />I guess the logical way around the whole thing, within the scope of the game (if this type of thing matters to you as a DM) is to create a reward system for players for things brought back from dungeons (lost artwork, useful bits of monsters, captured damsels, etc), or just for clearing the evil rampaging monsters out of the dungeon itself. Who says the reward has to be INSIDE the dungeon?Zrog (ESR)https://www.blogger.com/profile/09610162200721944106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-48489537148385481572013-02-02T07:52:27.625-07:002013-02-02T07:52:27.625-07:00From a complete outsider who stumbled on this rath...From a complete outsider who stumbled on this rather interesting blog, I think jbeltman hit the nail on the head. If we assume dungeon and monsters here/civilization there, and never the twain shall meet - then yeah, there are some logic issues. But if we blur the lines, and see interconnected races, or species, of monsters at various levels of interaction, then it makes more sense. Anything above animal intelligence is smart enough to know coins are valuable to someone, be it merchant, black market, mercenary, assassin, whatever. And they know to hide these coins since, well, they are as likely hiding them from one another as any outside interloper. These often are evil creatures after all. And if they are in an environment where they must defend what they hope to use for some ultimate benefit, then naturally they'll keep it, protect it, hide it, guard it. So it actually makes sense as jbeltman explained. David Griffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06629314279592541401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-2648739383886297752013-01-21T22:01:12.157-07:002013-01-21T22:01:12.157-07:00The monsters are told by their duly selected leade...The monsters are told by their duly selected leader that the shiny discs must be collected in order that a certain percentage can be surrendered to him. Brutal punishments await those who fail to comply, not to mention accusations of a lack of patriotism.<br /><br />So they either mine and mint them or raid for them, just like everyone else.<br /><br />It's not the best system. It's just the best system that the monsters have come up with so far.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-70308763868951207402013-01-20T23:29:38.161-07:002013-01-20T23:29:38.161-07:00Looking over the world I've cooked up there...Looking over the world I've cooked up there's gold in "dungeons" because:<br />-Most humanoid critter are part of the general economy and can buy stuff with their gold. Sure the orcs raid humans but they'll trade with the lizardmen when their caravans roll through (said caravans are well guarded enough that most people don't want to tangle with them) and even some foreign humans who occasionally ally with the orcs against elves.<br />-The dungeons has the gold put there by people long ago who WERE connected with the economy but they're dead now. The gold is in hidden places because there was lots of gold that wasn't in hidden and well-guarded places but all of that gold was looted centuries ago and only the best-guarded and hidden gold is left because if it wasn't so well-guarded and hidden someone would've taken it already.Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-60912531464469136302013-01-20T22:33:06.160-07:002013-01-20T22:33:06.160-07:00Now THAT is a good argument!
But why do to they k...Now THAT is a good argument!<br /><br />But why do to they keep it hidden in treasure rooms?Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-58552234251849591992013-01-20T21:59:52.795-07:002013-01-20T21:59:52.795-07:00Human meat is food. Gold attracts human meat. More...Human meat is food. Gold attracts human meat. More gold is more meat. Strixyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09611546357594535368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-72737583001198721552013-01-19T04:58:38.835-07:002013-01-19T04:58:38.835-07:00According to Tolkien, Smaug collected gold for no ...According to Tolkien, Smaug collected gold for no particular reason but guarded it furiously. It seems that the only use of gold, and treasure, was to sleep on it, and as a protective layer for the dragon's belly. It was just something dragons do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-84000954065634894822013-01-18T07:55:58.135-07:002013-01-18T07:55:58.135-07:00Hi Alexis,
I don't think anyone has suggested...Hi Alexis,<br /><br />I don't think anyone has suggested this yet but monsters from higher levels could raid the levels below them. It would be like a PC party raiding the level but the money would stay in the dungeon, just moving up levels.<br /><br />As for why they have money that is something I have never really picked up on before. All the published dungeons I have seen just assume that the dungeon is there for raiding and there is no other contact with it so it would work like you say. Another way would be like in Isengard and Mordor in The Lord of the Rings where there are dark people living outside the dungeon who traffic with those evil creatures of the dungeon. The creatures of the dungeon get money to act as mercenarys and would pay for food and raw materials. So if someone was using a megadungeon in their campaign they may want to think more about how it affects the towns around and who is going to deal peaceably with the inhabitants, like you mention with the merchants. As long as the monsters have a way of purchasing goods they can use raiding as an easy way to get money from the surface and then spend it on the goods they need.<br /><br />Some other thoughts on why monsters have money:<br /><br />The dungeon created may be large enough to have an economy inside it so they use money to trade with each other inside the dungeon.<br /><br />Not every creature has to be evil. Some will be neutral or potentially even good. They could deal easily with the surface inhabitants.<br /><br />There may be humans/demihumans and others that can pass as humans living in the dungeon. Wizards hiding away like in The Seven Geases, Dwarves and Gnomes, Doppelgangers, evil clerics etc. They could easily have surface dealings. If nearby monsters know the clerics like coins they could save them to trade for the clerics services at a later date. I also love the idea of an ageless wizard sitting in his laboratory for 100 years doing research as monsters from upper levels give him coin for services or a toll to pass through his domain, then one day he walks up through the levels and walks to the nearby town to buy some arcane stuff he needs. He just walks into the same shop he bought them from before, calling the merchant by his great-great-great-great-grandfather's name since that is who he dealt with last time.<br /><br />Dragons are famouse for their avarice. If you sleep on a dragon's hoard your mind will be filled with greed and will turn into a dragon yourself, like in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader I think. Monsters may save money because they covet it. They may use it to show their status, even though they have no use for it themselves they realise others judge worth and power by how much they have so they take it from victims whenever they can. It could be almost like keeping trophies.<br /><br />Conan stories are full of races long thought dead, going through the motions of their life as if in a dream. They could be acting on thoughts of how their life used to be, accumulating money because they remember doing it to trade with the next city over, which has been a wasteland for 1000 years.<br /><br />Finally stupidity, monsters may see others keeping it and take it from their prey, not understanding what it is or what it is for. <br /><br />One more thing while I am at it, that point you sort of mentioned, that idea of orcs hating the image on the coin so they vandalise it and actually make a mockery of the image on the coin, it would be great giving that to a bunch of PCs and watch them try to spend it.<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />John.jbeltmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02264520619277158883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-77684466362067719072013-01-18T05:19:54.576-07:002013-01-18T05:19:54.576-07:00The DMG makes clear that gold pieces have supernat...The DMG makes clear that gold pieces have supernatural power; performing a really hard act of theft that yields little gold does not generate the same XP as performing an easy theft that yields boxes of gold.<br /><br />Thus we have the following equations:<br /><br />Gold = XP.<br />XP = classes, levels, spells, and magic items.<br />Monsters = magically created things.<br /><br />Thus, the monsters are collecting that gold so they can spawn by some weird supernatural process.<br /><br /><br />Gold = experience points. XP = making magic items and spells. Monsters = magic things.<br /><br />The monsters need gold to advance or spawn. Somehow gold pieces get translated into supernatural powerMCPlanckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09239576472889126413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-18965191435868047562013-01-17T18:51:56.043-07:002013-01-17T18:51:56.043-07:00Just wanted to note my approval of your Lady Gagga...Just wanted to note my approval of your Lady Gaggag comment. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-7583797422318288592013-01-17T13:11:30.896-07:002013-01-17T13:11:30.896-07:00You didn't present ANY discussion of theoretic...You didn't present ANY discussion of theoretical game economics.<br /><br />You discussed what you did in your world, arrogantly. You even included the statement that you didn't BELIEVE in modern economics. And you were called on it.<br /><br />Don't get sniffy now.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-8338922229503113922013-01-17T13:07:30.966-07:002013-01-17T13:07:30.966-07:00Ok I apologies if you think i was off track or I i...Ok I apologies if you think i was off track or I if though this was an open discussion on theoretical game economics.Konsumterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18170560484656800416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-22701292960268752552013-01-17T12:51:13.404-07:002013-01-17T12:51:13.404-07:00Well, that WAS kranky.
A thing I hate about some ...Well, that WAS kranky.<br /><br />A thing I hate about some people who comment is this statement that begins, "WELL, in my world, I do this ..."<br /><br />No one here is talking about what YOU, the DM, are doing in YOUR world. No one here is talking about the assumptions YOU are making about the game as YOU play it.<br /><br />The discussion, as I presented it, was in reference to the sort of assumptions being made in the DMG, or the Dragon Magazine, or a hundred other sources including modules and games that are not D&D. Nothing in the above post is about what I do in MY world ... except the statement above that says I intend to go on playing the game with coins underground ANYWAY.<br /><br />This error on some readers in due to a psychological reaction; people feel that facts, discussion, deconstruction and deliberation CHALLENGE their PERSONAL RIGHT to do something, and they leap in demanding that their personal rights be addressed, and right now!<br /><br />"WELL," they shout reflexively; "In MY world ..." and so on. It is a lacking of self-confidence. As though no one, anywhere, can discuss something intellectually that makes them appear to be - in their own minds - stupid or in error. This is something they hold neurotically in their own minds, and has nothing to do with thinking. It has everything to do with feeling.<br /><br />And when I encounter these feelings ... I feel the need to kick just as goddamn hard as I can, so that they understand that their immense fear of being hurt by something I say will be realized in the extreme ... and the only people left on this blog comment roll will be people who do not hold their personal feelings in such terribly high regard. Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-48022995763268912822013-01-17T12:33:44.748-07:002013-01-17T12:33:44.748-07:00I am sorry for accidentally deleting your comment,...I am sorry for accidentally deleting your comment, Konsumterra.<br /><br />I'm not sorry for being kranky about my statement. Your position is absolute bullshit. You don't believe in modern economics? Lovely. You're world does this and does that? Seriously, how is what YOUR relevant to this conversation, except that you feel it needs to be presented in its full idiocy on other blogs?<br /><br />Giordanisti did a lovely job of demonstrating logically the profound flaw in your "solution" to the problem of the economy you don't believe in. Unfortunately for you, we're not all playing your game, we haven't all bought into your FABULOUS conception of how a world should be and on the whole it hasn't improved any of the discussion at all.<br /><br />Now, I have no problem with you being an arrogant prick. I am an arrogant prick. But I don't come around to your blog and kick the cocks out of your mouth at 3 a.m., do I?Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-66407977394760531772013-01-17T12:26:41.381-07:002013-01-17T12:26:41.381-07:00Well it was a tad cranky.
Someone else did a spr...Well it was a tad cranky. <br /><br />Someone else did a spreadsheet to calculate how their dungeon per level accumulates over time. I guess i have a very mythic-bronze age empire streak to my games. The universe revolves around humans and everything in the universe is made in relation to humans. Monsters are just withholding cash from humans by divine will. Heroes release it to the people. Some kings take it to the grave and impoverish their people for glory in the next world. Man is the measure of all things. If I run gritty dark age europe RQ it would be every coin has a measurable human history and probably a claimant (a descendant of owners or a king) who demands it back. My next game will be Empire dungeon corps mining pre-human hordes and relics from dungeons across world.Konsumterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18170560484656800416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-74827847610234062122013-01-17T12:21:14.877-07:002013-01-17T12:21:14.877-07:00Hooray.
Here is Konsumterra's comment, comple...Hooray.<br /><br />Here is Konsumterra's comment, complete:<br /><br />"If im playing a game with gods, religion, monsters and magic Im not looking for social or economic or moral realism. It's a game about killing and robbing dumb animals and genocide. The whole trope of races in fantasy fiction and games is rooted in Victorian race theory and nationalistic "epics". I dont really approve of modern economics or religion or royalty or race theory personally but i entertain it as fantasy in a game. DnD isnt about natural realism or ethics for me. Its a playpen for interesting what if cosmologies."<br /><br />I am, again, VERY sorry.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-41199971705386186932013-01-17T11:08:47.301-07:002013-01-17T11:08:47.301-07:00Oops, my comment was in reference to one that was ...Oops, my comment was in reference to one that was subsequently deleted. Apologies for any confusion about its context!Giordanistihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375496443176258588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-9175843094868371932013-01-17T11:08:41.017-07:002013-01-17T11:08:41.017-07:00SHIT.
Komsumterra,
I did not mean to delete your...SHIT.<br /><br />Komsumterra,<br /><br />I did not mean to delete your comment. I was planning on discussing it, I tagged the wrong button and it was deleted. Damn.<br /><br />I have the comment in full on my email, but I don't have access to it right now. I can get it up again later today.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-26521417190107849672013-01-17T11:06:57.269-07:002013-01-17T11:06:57.269-07:00I whole-heartedly approve of what-if cosmologies, ...I whole-heartedly approve of what-if cosmologies, Konsumterra, but I like my what-ifs to go as far as I can possibly take them. It's essentially an impossibility to have an ACTUALLY realistic economy in a DnD, or to create realistic social effects. However, if you're proposing a set of "cosmological axioms", those axioms can be carried a great distance, and lend verisimilitude even to overtly fantastic worlds. If we propose orcs are evil a priori, what does that actually mean? What do orcs do in their free time? What do they eat? What is precious to them? The answers don't have to be realistic. We could say orcs don't have to eat, and in fact survive by being bathed in the blood of other humanoids (that's pretty evil!). But then, what IMPLICATIONS does that have for the rest of the world? Would a clever orc breed chubby, blood-rich halflings as a sort of cattle?<br /><br />Logic can be applied to ANY axioms you propose. Asking how gold gets into a dungeon is not an really an attempt to point out flaws in the game; it's a way to give the game more depth, draw more connections between world elements, and give the players more tools (and opportunities to use said tools). Run your world with whatever themes and elements you desire. But know that the more you think about the reasons for those elements, the more tactile and REAL your world will feel.Giordanistihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18375496443176258588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-11622095931563953122013-01-17T10:59:53.609-07:002013-01-17T10:59:53.609-07:00As one who plays D&D as a simulation of a fant...As one who plays D&D as a simulation of a fantastic reality, I love these posts.<br /><br />Shit must make sense or players will be unable to suspend disbelief.<br /><br />In my campaign settings, players usually only delve into monster lairs in search of the monster, it having already made itself a nuisance. I ignore monster treasure tables.<br /><br />Tombs, on the other hand...joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12351926278188565029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-24762068555618363742013-01-17T10:41:26.828-07:002013-01-17T10:41:26.828-07:00Konsumterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18170560484656800416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-57987076417482456472013-01-17T10:36:12.077-07:002013-01-17T10:36:12.077-07:00Well since it would means that the hours I spent e...Well since it would means that the hours I spent earning said money (as well as, say the petty comments of my manager, or the desire to buy medication for my aching head )would then belong to that god - or dark thing, I'm happy that your typical yuppie doesn't read much RPG-related content. Doesn't read much, in fact.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16922452975669962790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-14737788616382472482013-01-17T10:31:07.779-07:002013-01-17T10:31:07.779-07:00I saw a post on io9 about ORBIS and immediately th...I saw a post on io9 about ORBIS and immediately thought of you. If you haven't seen it already, it's worth your time.Peppermint Nightmarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03988746526687542570noreply@blogger.com