tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post4421800152350605122..comments2023-10-14T03:58:59.333-06:00Comments on The Tao of D&D: Guilt and ConflictAlexis Smolenskhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-35499887561363967452019-03-26T08:09:29.073-06:002019-03-26T08:09:29.073-06:00Judging from what I'm reading about guilt, a p...Judging from what I'm reading about guilt, a physical manifestation seems more believable than a loss of wisdom. But perhaps if a person is willing to commit atrocities, perhaps their wisdom is in danger of a permanent hit.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-89998547504209780732019-03-26T01:43:30.302-06:002019-03-26T01:43:30.302-06:00Would a hit to Wisdom be a reasonable consequence ...Would a hit to Wisdom be a reasonable consequence to an atrocity? It would trigger problems if the PC had an addiction. More easily disttacted, difficulty focusing for clerical spells. I seem to remember you had some down-time effects for different levels of wisdom too.<br />Could rest/recovery of fatigue and spells be impacted by wisdom? <br /><br />Devil is in the detail on what an atrocity is to an individual. Class-based, background culture, perhaps? kimbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12961382206655820923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-72177425580029477972019-03-25T18:58:04.827-06:002019-03-25T18:58:04.827-06:00I shall keep digging, Agravain. An an answer to y...I shall keep digging, Agravain. An an answer to you, and to JB, I propose that I never take an arduous route to anything once it's in place in the game. The conflict system was fantastically easy to teach, instantly accessible intellectually to the players and much missed when I pulled it down.<br /><br />JB, I feel I'm giving you a terrible reason for concern ... my last comment was meant to be reassuring. It clearly wasn't.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-15492190685194420512019-03-25T18:25:36.548-06:002019-03-25T18:25:36.548-06:00The idea of making the exploitation more difficult...The idea of making the exploitation more difficult mechanically was meant in lieu of forcing the PCs to have empathy...instead saying “no need to have empathy, but it’s not so simple as a single roll to manipulate” (or whatever)...making it a practical matter of inconvenience rather than one based on any enforced morality.<br /><br />There are still benefits to taking such an arduous route, of course: cultivating a willing pawn/tool may take time but might bring benefits that outweigh the experience of simply offing a troublesome (or annoying) NPC.<br /><br />But I think I may have missed the boat when this conversation took a hard turn in this post...re-reading this post, you’re now talking about adding remorse (or an acknowledgement of the existence of remorse) for ALL scandalous actions a player might choose to take? Apologies as I was still focused on the charisma post. Could a build-up of callousness, cynicism, or general “hardening of heart” be linked directly to a character’s level? Or...sheesh, I don’t know. Does a trained fighter (let alone an assassin) feel the same amount (or type) of remorse for “murder-hobo” activity as a druid or monk? Isn’t part of the class training designed to burn out this part of the conscience (as boot camp does for new recruits)? <br /><br />I think I understand your aim of this thought experiment, but...well, maybe I’m lost. You keep writing and I’ll try to keep up.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-18913826705845238092019-03-25T18:19:24.892-06:002019-03-25T18:19:24.892-06:00I've been using fatigue as a mechanic for a wh...I've been using fatigue as a mechanic for a while now, and it's working really good. <br /><br />In practice every time you do something tiring, being it running, walking under the rain /sun without protection, turning undead, bashing down an iron-bound door, you get a fatigue token to put on your character sheet Every token gives you -1 to AC, hit, abilities check and movement.<br /><br />Eating a well cooked meal, sleeping, or indulging in vices removes one (or more) fatigue. <br /><br />Is pretty clean and easy to track, and pushes players to look for comfort whenever they can, as they would irl. Also lets them experience the "weight" of unfavorable climate.<br /><br />I also tried a similar mechanic for mental stress, but it turned out to be really hard to track and left very little agency to the players while punishing them in already unfavorable situations. <br /><br />I honestly didn't think of the physical implications of mental fatigue... And thanks to your idea, I think I see how I can use the same mechanic for guilt, stress and empathy. I can feel the weight on the paladin when he sees an innocenct dying, while unable to help (instead of having him suicide against a hundred orcs because his alignment says so). <br /><br />There is something real good here. Keep on digging that hole. Agravainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08989019612543108007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-88544452339309441682019-03-25T18:13:08.922-06:002019-03-25T18:13:08.922-06:00When I advanced the conflict idea initially, there...When I advanced the conflict idea initially, there were no sage abilities in the present form. Undoubtedly, any return to the interaction mech would need to MESH with those sage abilities ... and yes, particularly for the thief and the assassin, there would be specific benefits that would manifest as cards.<br /><br />I see that as a grand opportunity. But, for the present, I'm in no rush. I have lots of ideas on the go, all the time, and I know well that it's best to let them simmer once they're proposed.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-50690733173542916362019-03-25T17:29:34.218-06:002019-03-25T17:29:34.218-06:00I've been mentally rolling this post and the l...I've been mentally rolling this post and the last around a lot, and I've now passed my initial inclination to refer to other games/systems - as JB pointed out, "those games are ABOUT this stuff ... D&D isn't."<br /><br />My next leaning is to suggest that an alternative mechanic to leverage is one you've already found successful rather than the conflict cards. Namely, the Sage Abilities. Maybe this angle isn't to your taste, but if the system could run in the same vein where characters master particular fixed areas of "ability", then with practice they would be able to not suffer the same consequences of certain actions suffered by normal characters. <br /><br />Now, this might be better tied to number of iterations rather than level, but might lead to a method of measuring how much one can do at each stage, tiering from (for example) feelings of shock, to guilt, to nagging feeling, then no remorse at all (perhaps advancing to enjoyment? we'd have crossed the psychotic line somewhere). <br /><br />It also allows particular actions to be treated independently (or within close groups), which is quite different to the broad movement between, say, alignment categories - a method you've already discarded (and I couldn't agree more with, for the record).Duskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11925274446793976278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-88635388499617563742019-03-25T14:14:29.670-06:002019-03-25T14:14:29.670-06:00I repeat. I am not digging a grave for good ol...I repeat. I am not digging a grave for good ol' murder-hoboing, served up the way your dear sweet mother used to cook it.<br /><br />"Just make it harder to exploit NPCs" is, to my mind, basically the same argument as the alignment construction. Granted, yes, some NPCs will be harder to exploit ~ they will have friends and property and titles and levels. But when the decrepit old man steps up to the party and says, "I have some news for you," and Jiger the Assassin kills him outright, there ain't no time for manipulation. And making the old man "harder to kill" sounds pretty darned interventionist as a DM, in my mind.<br /><br />On the other hand, forcing Jiger to relive the murder again and again in his mind that night, so that he wakes up the next day unrested and tired, and lacking verve, and effectively suffering from forced march effects, that sounds pretty damn fair in my books. And, if I may say so, one way of "making it harder to kill NPCs."<br /><br />Going back to your comment on the other post, JB, I'm not interested in restoring alignment, or imposing ANY construct that is based on stopping players from doing what they want to do. I'm only proposing putting more obstacles between A and B. If Jiger kills five or ten old men, logically, the guilt and remorse he feels should subside. Perhaps if we designate a certain number of old men as the goal post, once Jiger passes that point, he's free and clear, and he's got the card that says he can kill one or two aging old men per day. Fundamentally, that doesn't take away old man death from the game ... but it DOES give Jiger a reason to feel justifiably proud of his achievement in getting that sweet, sweet card. He went through a lot of sleepless nights to become the butcherous swine that he is.<br /><br />So please don't think I'm trying to make players traditionally "feel empathy" for NPCs. I am sincerely proposing ~ a thought experiment at this point ~ a means of contributing to the escapism and enjoyment of the game.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-47773753316826455542019-03-25T13:52:51.639-06:002019-03-25T13:52:51.639-06:00Okay, so I wrote my comments on the last post befo...Okay, so I wrote my comments on the last post before you put this up. <br /><br />Just make it harder to exploit NPCs. The social conflict cards made it too easy to exploit NPCs. You've made people tougher to kill in your game (adding HPs based on mass) to better model the reality of physics. Real world manipulation isn't so easy as a single interaction. It took Hitler a long time to build up his supporters (and convince the thugs he was the right man to lead them). It took Trump many months of campaigning to convince enough Republicans he was the right candidate to put on the general election ballot. Yes, it is possible to procure a "one-night stand" over a couple drinks and a little conversation...if the person you're talking to is looking for that kind of action. It takes a lot longer to seduce your buddy's happily married spouse into the sack. <br /><br />And it should likewise be really hard to convince a thinking human being into stepping into the open and taking the first arrow, unless the person is used to taking such risks (i.e. is a professional soldier) and is being adequately compensated for the danger (i.e. is being well-paid). Charisma ADDS to the ability to convince someone to do something risky or foolish, but it isn't the same as a "charm" spell. Magic is, of course, magic. JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.com