tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post3557981056430900864..comments2023-10-14T03:58:59.333-06:00Comments on The Tao of D&D: A Player's ClericAlexis Smolenskhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-19445441708103547612009-06-06T16:26:32.579-06:002009-06-06T16:26:32.579-06:00This is a bit I wrote for a post on Dragonsfoot a ...This is a bit I wrote for a post on Dragonsfoot a while ago in a thread that concerned clerics. <br /><br />An explanation as to why I enjoyed running the stern, but fatherly Luminar, cleric of Pholtus.<br /><br />Grulg, " Arrrrrghhh! I'm bleeding to death! Help me shining priest!"<br /><br />Luminar, " You must sing the lesser hymn to draw the good will of the God."<br /><br />Grulg, " Not again, please! I'm going to pass out!"<br /><br />Luminar, "Sing!"<br /><br />Grulg, " Pholtus loves me this I know! For the scrolls of enlightenment tell me so!<br />Adventurers to him belong, they are weak, but he is strong!<br />Yes, Pholtus requires strict adherence to the path of rightness!<br />Yes, Pholtus requires strict adherence to the path of rightness!<br />Yes, Pholtus requires strict adherence to the path of rightness!<br />For the scrolls of enlightenment tell me so!"<br /><br />Luminar, " Forget not the tithe!"E.G.Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10229893317543621720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-6688470651142356012009-06-06T09:23:01.064-06:002009-06-06T09:23:01.064-06:00What was it AC Doyle via Holmes said about pleasan...What was it AC Doyle via Holmes said about pleasant looking country dwellings? Something like, don't let the appearance fool you, fouler deeds take place there where no-one can hear the screams.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-51728015546420656152009-06-06T07:53:41.866-06:002009-06-06T07:53:41.866-06:00Kent,
I would guess you've never lived in a r...Kent,<br /><br />I would guess you've never lived in a rural setting in your life.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-83673337700807154342009-06-06T06:00:10.972-06:002009-06-06T06:00:10.972-06:00Your happy-go-lucky cleric skipping around the cou...Your happy-go-lucky cleric skipping around the countryside sprinkling miracles on those with aching knees or sore thumbs would shed his naivety the first day he was chased by a horde of complainants. "Why can't I have a glyph on my door too, you bastard" is closer to the reality of human nature.<br /><br />Any effort at simulating real world religions for an AD&D cleric crashes up against the problem that in the the real world there is no certain existence of the deity revealed through daily petty miracles and the core concept of faith is rendered meaningless. The more realistically you describe your church the more foolish clerics with fantasy spells look.Kenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11165997449776226774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-22513986454924345912009-06-05T18:57:17.962-06:002009-06-05T18:57:17.962-06:00I just wanted to chime in and say that the "s...I just wanted to chime in and say that the "skull sweat and critical thought" is much appreciated and a little inspiring. I can only hope that if I had the time and skill I'd do something similar.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00433823836676600019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-53931215931463202012009-06-05T16:35:26.602-06:002009-06-05T16:35:26.602-06:00:) Fair enough.
Sorry to see that you've remo...:) Fair enough.<br /><br />Sorry to see that you've removed the previous response. I think it breaks the flow of the comments when you read them without it. I seem to be apologizing to the air, to some extent. The majority of it was also a legitimate answer to my question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-48775629290566052302009-06-05T16:24:28.687-06:002009-06-05T16:24:28.687-06:00Whatever keeps the swine away.Whatever keeps the swine away.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-47984436224645957602009-06-05T15:54:32.056-06:002009-06-05T15:54:32.056-06:00Takes one (patronizer) to know one? :)
Well, you’...Takes one (patronizer) to know one? :)<br /><br />Well, you’ve gone to the trouble of writing online, allowing free access to folks around the world. You’ve gone to the greater trouble of writing some very detailed analyses and explaining them step by step to the public. Clearly not everyone puts the same kind of skull sweat and critical thought into their D&D, and it feels like you’re trying to help others add more detail, verisimilitude, and even realism to their games. I just sometimes get the sense that you feel like you’re casting pearls before swine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-33528431483370500232009-06-05T13:47:46.236-06:002009-06-05T13:47:46.236-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Zzarchovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07714805545939725730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-30462113542785923342009-06-05T13:43:58.287-06:002009-06-05T13:43:58.287-06:00I rescind my earlier comments.
A bit patronizing ...I rescind my earlier comments.<br /><br />A bit patronizing at the end there, shimrod. Why would you think I want my writing to be accessible?Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-34838392025739018082009-06-05T13:36:12.638-06:002009-06-05T13:36:12.638-06:00I apologize if you felt the tone of my post was ch...I apologize if you felt the tone of my post was challenging or insulting. In retrospect, I guess it comes across as boasting. That was not the intent. Rather I meant to confirm that you’re not alone, that these are indeed good ideas, and that they work well in practice as well as in theory. My experience is no doubt less wide-ranging than yours, and undoubtedly I’ve been fortunate in the groups and people I’ve played with. <br /><br />I’m not in any way trying to discount or cast aspersions on your observations or suggestions. In my first post I believe I indicated that I HAVE observed problems with Clerics like you’ve described, roughly as often as I’ve seen them played (and DM’d) well. <br /><br />You’re a smart person, and have a lot to contribute. It does seem like you sometimes take an excessively superior and/or antagonistic tone, which reduces the accessibility and utility of your writing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-29236083344414125912009-06-05T10:49:04.806-06:002009-06-05T10:49:04.806-06:00I should point out I do agree with the concept of ...I should point out I do agree with the concept of the helpful church, the church as a money factory and the love townsfolk have for the priest, and use those in my games.<br /><br />However the mechanics are different than pure good nature (as many religions were not all happy go lucky, especially in regions like Meso-America)<br /><br /><br />The piety mechanics I mentioned were intended as limited on High Sorcery being common (which priest magic is still magic).<br /><br />A priest who didn't want the quick and dangerous route to power (missionary work, converting villages of non-believers through deeds, crusades) would set up shop in a small village.<br /><br /><br />He would gain power for himself (and his god) by doing priestly duties. He would gain piety for burying the dead, he would gain peity for baptising or otherwise bringing new people into the fold (initiation rituals etc) as a converting process. He would gian piety (small amounts) every week by preaching to the congregation and keeping them following his faith. <br /><br />All of this is a source of power, as the congregation is born, lives and dies the priest gains power.<br /><br />But if they are going to follow and worship (and tithe) to this god and his church then surely he will protect them?<br /><br />Thus some of the piety will be spent healing people from accidents, curing a disease, increasing crop yields and blessing soldiers before battle. <br /><br />But there is a limit to how much can be done, thus in times of extreme disaster the priest must shrug and say "its all part of a mysterious plan"<br /><br /><br />The adventerous priest could gain more power by risking his life travelling to new lands and converting the masses, destroying rival temples and otherwise embarking on a crusade. <br /><br /><br />But there is still going to be the priests who tend to a local flock.<br /><br /><br />I don't see this as threatening to take away a priest's spells. Rather I see this as the ULTIMATE carrot.<br /><br />The priest has no spells, he is rewarded with spells in the first place by being a priest. <br /><br />If he is a Paladin (part priest part warrior) he might focus more on the soldiering and less on priestly duties, he can choose how many carrots he wants.<br /><br />If he is all priest he is going to focus SOLELY on priestly duties.<br /><br />Thus, it my mind its less of a straight jacket to the players. It lets them determine how pious and how zealous they are.<br /><br /><br /><br />To clarify.Zzarchovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07714805545939725730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-84581061095527803372009-06-05T10:23:58.232-06:002009-06-05T10:23:58.232-06:00In my case I must admit I build mechanics specific...In my case I must admit I build mechanics specifically to AVOID the situation you describe of the cleric wandering around healing. Not because I fear the PC doing such, but because then logically many NPC's should be doing as such.<br /><br />In many ways the power of the cleric are truly so mind bogglingly societally changing than the wizards that it breaks the low fantasy historical setting. Many of the spells allow clerics to create a world without famine, death or disease while the warrior is still trying to save up enough for platemail.<br /><br />A world with unlimited clerical abilities is in the end a world where the gods very directly intervene in the day to day routines of almost every human being.<br /><br />It is up there with "Mages Colleges" churning out magic items on such a scale that it becomes technology.<br /><br /><br />In such a case we have the archmage Stephen Hawking and pope Gregory House. In essence we have gone from a swords swinging fantasy to a science fantasy akin to star wars. Where technology is just magic.<br /><br /><br /> I prefer my priests to be able to save the entire village from a plague, or heal the child who fell down a well, but not constantly and not without price.<br /><br /><br />That is just my preferences.Zzarchovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07714805545939725730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-31333450715846161402009-06-05T08:36:33.252-06:002009-06-05T08:36:33.252-06:00Good post. Better than the previous one. Points ...Good post. Better than the previous one. Points 1 and 2 are definitely things that I’ve seen. The role and potential of the cleric as community leader and friend to the common folk is something we often see in play. It’s something Clerics frequently do whenever there’s “downtime” around people (like in town while people are healing up, shopping, investigating, etc). The cleric spends some spells and time helping the poor and winning converts and admirers. And as I touched on in my responses to the previous post, the groups I’ve played with have almost always included Clerics which got some benefit and support from their church. Whether it be a secure place to stay the night in a foreign town, or a scroll to remove a curse at a less than exhorbitant price, or a favorable introduction to the local lord. <br /><br />The way you write about how DMs “typically” run clerics and religion in their groups is pretty negative. Are you basing this primarily on bad DMs you’ve played with, or stuff you’ve read, or what?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-20535080911708667232009-06-04T14:02:05.114-06:002009-06-04T14:02:05.114-06:00This is really great work. I try to keep my campa...This is really great work. I try to keep my campaign as close to the perceived "real" medieval world as possible, and the points you have here help immensely.<br /><br />I've had players who have said "my cleric's going to go find some homeless people and help them out" - but I haven't gone that in depth with the benefits of being so gracious.<br /><br />The "church as a money-engine" concept is very VERY interesting. I never knew how important they were from an economic standpoint, and I plan on incorporating it as soon as possible.<br /><br />"Since, however, the ‘gods’ are really just me, I can’t fool myself that I’m playing out the parameters of the game rather than flatly invoking my will (and my perception of the cleric) upon the player."<br /><br />If you have trouble separating yourself from the gods of your campaign, I just have one piece of advice: I play my gods like I do my NPCs - they have goals, motivations, personality traits, etc. I simply channel them or try to think how they would act or react in certain situations. Obviously it doesn't eradicate the personal bias, but you can't ever truly remove that anyway.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00433823836676600019noreply@blogger.com