tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post3482600990504185316..comments2023-10-14T03:58:59.333-06:00Comments on The Tao of D&D: What MattersAlexis Smolenskhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-1655990914259070312016-05-17T15:06:29.294-06:002016-05-17T15:06:29.294-06:00I spent two months on attempting to create a "...I spent two months on attempting to create a "realistic economy." Eventually tossed it aside as too immense and difficult a project. <br /><br />I did eventually create an economic system, one that they players and myself agreed would work. Since the game is effectively about them becoming the rulers of a district in a city, it was important to get something working. The work has led to some interesting revelations, especially in terms of how taxes work, as I created an entire tax code just for the economy.<br /><br />The taxes, in a lot of ways, made the game work. The players want to create an army (get a stronghold, hire workers and soldiers, the whole thing) to act as police force for the district, so they can obtain the police's share of taxes. Of course, there is the small matter of the current police force. Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02846071799831004752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-74352605746262412762016-05-13T16:13:59.514-06:002016-05-13T16:13:59.514-06:00You realize, JB, that my reasons for not attemptin...You realize, JB, that my reasons for not attempting a "realistic" economy was simply because I could see from the beginning that it was never going to be possible; right off, I accepted that about the problem and simply moved forward, creating AN economy as noted.<br /><br />It is a testament to your awareness that you can see this where a great many others cannot (even when told it is so).Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-33284859068348342492016-05-13T16:09:55.217-06:002016-05-13T16:09:55.217-06:00: D: DJBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-35183891259148396142016-05-13T14:33:42.714-06:002016-05-13T14:33:42.714-06:00Yes, there are a lot of ways to build tension. I ...Yes, there are a lot of ways to build tension. I anticipate the fief being a good place for low-level henchmen to get some experience. The system absolutely needs to be more than a discount system. LTWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280926541054573911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-18309589548120793522016-05-13T14:17:23.538-06:002016-05-13T14:17:23.538-06:00LTW,
It is only that I have to read more carefull...LTW,<br /><br />It is only that I have to read more carefully.<br /><br />We can safely assume that the players will have reasons for keeping ten mercenaries beyond merely sitting on the land and consuming food. Because dungeons tend to offer bigger payoffs than an estate could, we have to look very carefully at a party's motivation for keeping a farm.<br /><br />Succeeding against the macrosystem cannot mean, "The wheat on our farm costed us 10% less than it would have if we'd bought the wheat outright." A party faced with that sort of math will quit farming. There isn't enough profit there to make it matter to them. This means that we have to either a) make it really more profitable; or b) bestow something in possessing the farm beyond that mere quantity the farm provides.<br /><br />The link I posted doesn't show up with a different color on my feed, so just to be sure you see it:<br /><br /><a href="http://tao-dnd.blogspot.ca/2010/03/estate-du-general.html" rel="nofollow">tao-dnd.blogspot.ca/2010/03/estate-du-general.html</a><br /><br />Thinking on the map on the link, those mercenaries should be farmers, not layabouts: each mercenary should be MORE land used, and as such MORE food. Farmer mercenaries are then patrons to the party, who regardless of the value of the food gain a profit in that the mercenaries are now fighting for the same thing the party is fighting for: their homes. This beats the macrosystem, where the mercenary is just a price that's paid; on their own land, the mercenary farmer is an ally, ready to fight for free if need be.<br /><br />So there is tension is sorting out the good mercenaries from the bad; in continually expanding, as you suggested, in order to provide more farmland so that you can have a larger population that are not farmers but artisans.<br /><br />The money is in candle-making, brewing, tanning and so on. These are ready things that the party can make big money on against the macroeconomic prices (where 10% will make a much bigger difference).<br /><br />The tension of the yield being bad or good only applies to how much it will cost the players to buy food for four hundred farmers, family and artisans; but it won't make a lot of difference as far as how much coin the players will make at the market (in fact, they should be warehousing abundance for those years when famine hits).<br /><br />I feel like I'm all over the place with this reply - but this is a real rabbit hole and it can go in all kinds of ways. I hope I can get across that there are lots of ways to build tension.<br /><br /><br />Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-57738968302914204242016-05-13T13:42:13.749-06:002016-05-13T13:42:13.749-06:00No apologies necessary. I doubt I will ultimately...No apologies necessary. I doubt I will ultimately come up with something that I'm very pleased with anyhow. <br /><br /> "the players have to apply that effort to succeeding against the macrosystem. This makes tension, as no one knows for sure if the yield will mean they make a profit or not.<br /><br />If the player's efforts and the rules for effort, period, line up exactly, where's the tension? We already know in advance what yield we'll get and if it is worth it . . . after that it is just math."<br /><br />Creating tensions...maybe I haven't gotten this far. My idea about tension is to try to create scarcity in that each peasant, or potential spearman, added to the manse will cost this many acres in crop yields. And yes the spearman comes with a family. <br /><br />-Or maybe the 10 mercenaries that have been staying on your land have consumed x out of the granary. <br /><br />-The 50 does and 1 buck (goats) that you have acquired by killing Baron Badwell will sell for x at the market, or could feed these many peasants per year with mutton and capretto, milk, and cheese and take up these many acres for grazing if you want to incorporate them into your herd. <br /><br /> Also I was anticipating tension when rolling to see whether a yields are good, bad, or somewhere in between. You seem to be on to something I haven't thought of yet. Care to elaborate?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />LTWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280926541054573911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-53324660167466650062016-05-13T12:56:29.401-06:002016-05-13T12:56:29.401-06:00OOPS!
I owe you an apology, LTW. I did not see t...OOPS!<br /><br />I owe you an apology, LTW. I did not see the words, "for a fief my players have in their possession."<br /><br />I am sorry. I am very sorry. Just read your comment too fast and did not see it until the second reading, after posting. That was wrong of me and I apologize.<br /><br />You have the link. I hope it helps.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-22348006963932107182016-05-13T12:54:30.624-06:002016-05-13T12:54:30.624-06:00I did do something like the grain for gold thing, ...I did do something like the grain for gold thing, back in the '90s. I posted <a href="http://tao-dnd.blogspot.ca/2010/03/estate-du-general.html" rel="nofollow">that work</a> on my blog, taking note that it is a fragment of my original work, long since lost.<br /><br />I only need micro-economics for the party and what the party does. For everything else, it has to be macro. And this makes sense. The party buys a piece of land, they try to grow food on it, I have endless figures from historical documents on what the yield ought to be (not just for Europe but for every food everywhere in the world) - and the players have to apply that effort to succeeding against the macrosystem. This makes tension, as no one knows for sure if the yield will mean they make a profit or not.<br /><br />If the player's efforts and the rules for effort, period, line up exactly, where's the tension? We already know in advance what yield we'll get and if it is worth it . . . after that it is just math.<br /><br />I advise you to give it up trying to make that kind of system apply for everyone, everywhere. I don't believe it will ultimately yield the results you're hoping for.<br /><br />On the other hand, you WILL learn a lot. I sure did. Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-24079210965281861212016-05-13T12:46:43.082-06:002016-05-13T12:46:43.082-06:00I am doing exactly this, I am working on a crop/li...I am doing exactly this, I am working on a crop/livestock yield system for a fief my players have in their possession. I have even used the source you quoted, Grain to Gold. I've done some research on the area to try to avoid making a generic price list. <br /><br /><br />My players want to add peasants to the fief in order to build an army. They also want to try to takeover some land from the adjacent fief to expand yields. So I am trying to build a system that will accommodate changes like these for my players. My players have suggested I fudge a number for the yield, but I want to do better than that. <br /><br />It is true that there isn't a lot that I have seen on your blog about creating a micro system like this. You have good resources on macro economics and market systems. I wonder how you would go about this Alexis?LTWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280926541054573911noreply@blogger.com