tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post226713997942568053..comments2023-10-14T03:58:59.333-06:00Comments on The Tao of D&D: Issues in Mapping ParaguayAlexis Smolenskhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-19374879902080954672015-10-26T00:24:23.944-06:002015-10-26T00:24:23.944-06:00This is very much my belief also, Randal. Conside...This is very much my belief also, Randal. Consider the proliferation of role-playing as part of psychology therapy throughout the 1950s and 60s, combined with the rise of gaming research by think tanks like the Rand Corporation, both of which were present staples on the average American campus at the time these guys were beginning their educations. The idea that they "invented" these ideas in a vacuum only shows how little the average modern gamer understands about academic culture in the late 60s and 70s.<br /><br />That is the crux of this issue: players today do not understand what influences OUTSIDE these 'gamers' messing around with ideas together circa 1972. They attended classes, saw films, heard discussions and were effectively inculcated into a culture that was seeing 'role-playing' as a solution to many of society's social and military ills, mixed into a cold-war culture where 'thinking' through a battle plan was becoming vastly more important than actually fighting. For fuck's sake, the game was invented during the Vietnam war - by boys who were avoiding that war through academic achievement. But none of that matters to the modern pundit, who is barely aware that most of the events going on in 1972-74 actually occurred.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-2134786487241265792015-10-26T00:10:36.889-06:002015-10-26T00:10:36.889-06:00The more I read about both Arneson or Gygax, the m...The more I read about both Arneson or Gygax, the more I become convinced that both of them were taking credit for too many of other people's ideas. <br /><br />I find it boggling that so many people latch onto these guys for hero worship, and claims of brilliant game design, when they were clearly both hacks. Yeah, some of each of their ideas were pretty good. But most of the ideas needed to be overhauled and completely redone. Very little of the necessary starting over and fixing of the rules from scratch ever seems to have been done, though. And a revision of the rules from OD&D to AD&D would have been the perfect time to do just that. <br /><br />Arneson had some good insights into combining other people's previously publicized ideas. Like the published accounts of the previous fantasy wargaming of Tony Bath's "Hyboria" and the "Tolkia" campaigns, into inspiration for the broad outlines of Arneson's own fantasy variant, Blackmoor. <br /><br />Arneson wasn't the first to use single player = single character, either. That may have been Tony Bath, again, or even earlier, in 1937, by Harry Otto Fisher, who quickly had Fritz Leiber adding to his unpublished Lankhmar role-playing board game. This was 37 years! before OD&D reached the market in 1974. In my book, Fisher is the true inventor of the earliest iterations of Role-playing games, and fantasy role-playing games. With Fritz Leiber as his junior partner.<br /><br />And Gygax claiming to be "Father of the Game..." How can Gygax state this with a straight face and no one calls him on it? Since Arneson had to teach Gygax what role-playing was about, by using the existing sketchy game rules for Blackmoor.... <br /><br />Single-PC fantasy role-playing was being done in Blackmoor, before Gygax even knew about the concept. Gygax admits as much. You can't claim to be father of something like a concept of all table top role-playing games and the computer games that derived from it (like Gygax has claimed) when role-playing pre-existed your knowledge and involvement in it.<br /><br />Color me cynical about either of those guys, and sour on most of the hero worship directed at them. Like you said, the myths are bullshit.<br /><br />Rob Kuntz has had some interesting inside dirt on actual events and personalities from back in the day. Kuntz revealed lots of details in a 51 minute youtube interview with Martin Brown of Grognard Games. "Rob Kuntz: Conversations, Part I."<br /><br />If you learned gaming from 2 of the 30 that sued these guys, then I'm sure anything from their accounts would make for some fascinating reading.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17975141307551179641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-10229533697809176632015-10-25T20:52:17.800-06:002015-10-25T20:52:17.800-06:00Remember this is the 1970s and regards students ma...Remember this is the 1970s and regards students making the game for themselves. Apart from physical records of a suit, if they still exist (they would be in Chicago), I have no way to ever check the story.<br /><br />What I have is two reliable sources, both of those thirty. One was very instrumental in teaching me the game. I met these people separately, a long time ago.<br /><br />This is why I believe the Arneson and Gygax myth is bullshit. Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-78304414402380461022015-10-25T18:17:40.812-06:002015-10-25T18:17:40.812-06:00Alexis,
I saw your comment on B/X Blackrazor, (9/...Alexis,<br /><br />I saw your comment on B/X Blackrazor, (9/10/15 "A Different Paradigm,") regarding both Arneson and Gygax, and it sounds right on the money to me. Hopefully, this isn't too off topic, but I wasn't sure where else to ask.<br /><br />"All right. Let's put on a shelf that in all probability these "letters" from these people are memoirs and therefore full of probable fabrications, particularly given that both these men were sued by about thirty fellow players and students in Chicago in the 70s who couldn't prove their case in court. We'll accept that history is made by the winners - who in 2004 can make up any story they like."<br /><br />"Gygax, for all his failings, stole the right ideas."<br /><br />All of that sounds true, and I'd like to read deeper. I can't find any mention of this student lawsuit against Gygax or Arneson, on either the internet, or in Jon Peterson's history of D&D, "Playing at the World."<br /><br />Is there a specific source you are quoting, or a site to read more specifics on this information?<br />Thanks for any pointers with this.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17975141307551179641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-9993138020694037042015-10-25T14:25:15.010-06:002015-10-25T14:25:15.010-06:00Great stuff. Asuncion (the main Spanish settlement...Great stuff. Asuncion (the main Spanish settlement in Paraguay and the Paraguayan capitol) was a pretty influential/powerful town in South America in the 17th century. If your players were willing to set sail to South America, it could certainly open up whole new realms of adventure (lots of supernatural mojo and monsters in the Chaco, not to mention lost temples and whatnot stashed in the jungles of Brazil and the mountains of Bolivia). <br /><br />Of course, you'd probably need to map east to Uruguay.<br />; )<br /><br />My compliments, Alexis (and my thanks)...your work really is amazing.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.com