tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post2208752876131946501..comments2023-10-14T03:58:59.333-06:00Comments on The Tao of D&D: Better Hit Points per DieAlexis Smolenskhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-5283479415758303112014-08-06T22:26:33.369-06:002014-08-06T22:26:33.369-06:00That comments section... wow... Did anybody actual...That comments section... wow... Did anybody actually read the post?<br /><br />A good post is one that makes you go, "huh, I never thought of that". This is one of those.<br /><br />This is the first time, I believe, that anyone has looked at the sort of Darwinian side of this, and the implications for the population, and the results really can't be ignored.<br /><br />Rolled HP for enemies is just one of those unquestioned received wisdom things that has (as clearly laid out here) had its day.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-48782547455315324052014-07-14T16:14:42.424-06:002014-07-14T16:14:42.424-06:00Sometimes, it makes sense that they wouldn't b...Sometimes, it makes sense that they wouldn't be at full strength, but not EVERY group of humanoids you come across as adventurers are going to be as violent and bloodthirsty (and unruly) as a group of orcs and goblins nesting near each other.<br /><br />When traveling the forests and accidentally coming across a group of elves that decide that they don't like you because you must be up to trouble and/or trying to destroy their forest, they have a high likelihood of attacking, but are not likely to be damaged previously.<br /><br />You may think/say "but elves aren't evil, so it doesn't count", but what about dark elves? They, with their scheming and sinister attitudes are almost never likely to attack while they are injured, and would be more likely to ensure that the injured are either ready for battle or dead by the time they actually go on to guard duty.<br /><br />There's a lot of merit in what Alexis is saying. I typically keep most of my NPC's at at least the 50% mark for their max hit points myself.<br /><br />Incidentally, I think that orcs in particular should be quite a bit closer to d12's than d8's anyway, as they are normally proposed to have a darwinistic culture in which only the strongest survive without becoming slaves. Perhaps just keep them at 2 HD creatures instead of 1 HD.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12177935136737508576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-83665416291586761362014-07-10T23:01:58.636-06:002014-07-10T23:01:58.636-06:00A thought experiment based on an allegory.
My fat...A thought experiment based on an allegory.<br /><br />My father, when my sister and I were just babes, read in a book on medieval European cultures that supposedly one was considered old enough to participate in a boar hunt if they could reach over the top of their head and touch the bottom of their ear. Curious, he had my sister and I attempt to do so every month or so to see what age that was. My sister and I had long enough arms to do so at age six.<br /><br />The implication: six year old children were, by some cultures, considered old enough to participate in hunting one of the most dangerous game animals known to man.<br /><br />Couple this with the continued practice of using child soldiers, ancient practices of allowing young boys into military service (granted, often in non-combative roles), and the ancient traditions of passing a trade from parent to child, it would seem that weak youths are put into positions to die more often throughout history.<br /><br />So, I'm curious as to how well your stats for low hit point survival rates match up to historical stats for child mortality, particularly ages 6-13.<br /><br />If that stats come close, then wouldn't that imply that low HP targets are exceptionally young individuals? Certainly would put a darker and grittier tone on the game, and bring in interesting tactics. Are paladins now morally obligated to avoid low HP targets out of a need to avoid massacring children? Are evil creatures prone to seeking out and killing low HP targets because they are young, weak and scream delightfully as they die?Spazalicious Chaoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18244425041829215280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-24008459158505228572014-07-09T11:13:57.634-06:002014-07-09T11:13:57.634-06:00I don't believe I actually said anywhere in th...I don't believe I actually said anywhere in this post that a 1 hit point creature couldn't exist. I believe what I said was that they would be unusual. So would 2 hp creatures and 3 hp creatures. I fail to see how the rarity of such creatures equals the need to defend the existence of such creatures.<br /><br />Throughout this whole debate, that has been ignored. It has been conflated into me saying that 1 hp is impossible. It is reworking the message completely. But . . . this is what I expect anymore.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-79670258784780966162014-07-08T07:21:35.401-06:002014-07-08T07:21:35.401-06:00Fair enough, James.Fair enough, James.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-76633737847427248552014-07-08T07:04:58.872-06:002014-07-08T07:04:58.872-06:00We're not looking to use stories to replace ru...<i>We're not looking to use stories to replace rules.</i><br /><br />This isn't an either or proposition, though, Alexis. I think a variable amount of hit points from 1 to 8 is a <i>better</i> rule than what you're proposing <i>so far</i> for reasons stated. I prefer a game where nobody shows up to the battle with max hit points, players included. In my game combats are much quicker and deadlier than in yours but even in your own campaign the players only ever have max hit points after an extended period of rest or travel. Rolling 1d8 for hit points is just a short cut to put the monsters on even footing. <br /><br />I know you're not looking for a short cut here, but a better method. My original question related to how a better method would account for monsters not being at max. You answered that it won't, then questioned my premise, which I endeavored to explain. Now we're done. :) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-14198775031977794102014-07-08T06:40:08.967-06:002014-07-08T06:40:08.967-06:00JD,
Yeah. The shit with the triangles. That was...JD,<br /><br />Yeah. The shit with the triangles. That wasn't an argument. You were internet baiting me.<br /><br />p. 82 discusses hit points. Paragraph 1 discusses the logic of ADDING hit points. Paragraph 2 supports that argument by quoting Rasputin, then <i>specifically argues that hit points are not representative of physical injury</i>, the argument that's been consistently made here to explain low hit points.<br /><br />Paragraph 3 discusses average hit points per level, then an explanation of what hit points represent, to explain how a player can have so many.<br /><br />Then the book goes on to discuss recovery of hit points and zero hit points. There isn't one thing on page 82 that says anything like, "when encountering monsters with negligible hit points, presuppose it is because they sustained some sort of injury before meeting the party."<br /><br />Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs, sonny.<br /><br />Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-29395349543426044642014-07-08T06:28:45.869-06:002014-07-08T06:28:45.869-06:00Bang on, Maxwell.Bang on, Maxwell.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-10869903804944044112014-07-08T06:27:42.166-06:002014-07-08T06:27:42.166-06:00Alexis, you have no monopoly on thought or analysi...Alexis, you have no monopoly on thought or analysis on the topic. The nature and assignment of HP to PC/NPC/Monster is not something I've given just moments of thought to or hasn't been written about over and over again in the p<br />Past few decades.<br />The very first set of D&D rules I read explained the use of HP in encounter setup and how it could reflect injury,illness, or some other handicap. The original DMG made it clear HP were not just meat or endurance on page 82. The method of rolling HP by variant dice rolls so you are guaranteed higher hp by rolling say d4+4 per HD instead of 1d8 has come up before in TSR era D&D. It isn't a topic no one has explored before. And yes Alexis I was able to read what you wrote and spent hours working on and think about it in moments because I feel and see numbers ,I used to dream in calculus and solve equations in my sleep when in college, I still do on occasion. My initial comment could have been better explained but it was not without thought or trying to steal your thunder with piggybaking.<br /><br />The "shit with the triangles"? Really? JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-77650740064919369552014-07-07T20:15:29.196-06:002014-07-07T20:15:29.196-06:00Alexis, I want to check my understanding of this p...Alexis, I want to check my understanding of this post and your comment follow-ups.<br /><br />(1) Hit points, with no additions such as your mass-HP rule, are a range from 1-X on a dX, e.g. 1-8 on 1d8.<br /><br />(2) From (1) we know that 1 in 8 1HD creatures ("humanoids") have only 1 HP.<br /><br />(3) From (2), the damage die for a spear, and the chance to hit a humanoid, a certain number of humanoids will die after one round in battle.<br /><br />(4) From (3) we can extrapolate, finding that a certain number of humanoids will be killed after 2, 3, ... n rounds of battle.<br /><br />(5) From (4), low-HP humanoids should at least not be present in raiding parties or guards or similar high-tactical-value groups of humanoids (to borrow a term from the comments.) The reason is because these low-HP humanoids are either (A) not suited for such a role, or (B) already dead, based on (4).<br /><br />(6) The fact that the HP values of high-tactical-value humanoids do not reflect (5) is a flaw in the system.<br /><br />Am I correct? Maxwell Joslynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02309867478186083339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-10182902850254785762014-07-07T18:14:06.312-06:002014-07-07T18:14:06.312-06:00James C,
We're not looking to use stories to ...James C,<br /><br />We're not looking to use stories to replace rules.<br /><br />That's nice about Vrok and Brok and Frok and Grok. What you're arguing is that this is true with every encounter. Really?Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-77263844030602809072014-07-07T17:55:00.096-06:002014-07-07T17:55:00.096-06:00Alexis, isn't inventing a story sort, well, so...Alexis, isn't inventing a story sort, well, sort of THE WHOLE POINT OF PLAYING THE GAME. I'm not duct taping anything, brother.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-53938868583237556142014-07-07T17:52:15.977-06:002014-07-07T17:52:15.977-06:00Because this is not the monster's first encoun...Because this is not the monster's first encounter, of course. Last week there was the battle with the Twisted Eye goblins, and I think Grok's wound might be festering still. Yesterday there was the dust-up over what to do with the slaves we caught in the raid and I think Vrok and Brok's bells are still ringing from the blows Frok gave them both. It was a bit drafty in the cave last night, and I've got the sniffles. Now this band of thugs just banged in the front door to the cave and we've got our hands full with that. <br /><br />The player-characters are only given the advantage of max hit points when first created. Everyhting after that is up to the players' ability to plan. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-23848456415696791772014-07-07T17:13:28.566-06:002014-07-07T17:13:28.566-06:00As a matter of interest, I recently came across th...As a matter of interest, I recently came across this quote from Gygax regarding his ideas for changes to 1E for the 2nd edition (this was before he was booted from TSR and thus didn't contribute to the reworking):<br /><br />"I say that as barbarians get d12 for HPs, then clearly extrapolation of the same principle must apply to large and vigorous creatures. This mitigates the potential increase in PC prowess. As a matter of fact, adult critters were assigned 7-12 HPs per HD in my AD&D campaign--have been given the same in what I have designed for the C&C game system. Also, with increase in damage due to Strength, all large and powerful monsters, including ogres and giants, gain a damage bonus equal to their number of HD.<br /><br />"Admittedly, this is not in the [Unearthed Arcana] work, but it logically follows, and would have been included in the revised edition of AD&D that I was planning.<br /><br />“Actually I planned to go through the monsters' roster and re-assign HD types--d4, d6, d8, d10, and d12. While doing that in regards to the HPs of each type, the monsters' chance to hit based on number of HD would not be affected.<br /><br />"As too often "weak" monsters were randomly generated, I also planned to have robust adults possess HP totals of something over 50% of the possible maximum by using a HP generation system such as 3-4, 4-6, 6-10, 7-12 using the appropriate die to determine the actual number generated--d2, d3, d5, d6. Non-robust--immature, old, sick, injured, or even non-physically active sorts such as spell caster--monsters would have the obverse HP range using the same type of die without addition."<br /><br />[not too far off from your own line of thought, it would appear]<br /><br />I don't have an actual citation for the quotes; Joseph stated in his blog post that they could be produced if requested:<br /><br />http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2009/02/ad-second-edition.htmlJBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-14680529447857241342014-07-07T17:12:00.391-06:002014-07-07T17:12:00.391-06:00Since you have the cultures, the cities, and the r...Since you have the cultures, the cities, and the races you should be able to extract the relevant information.<br /><br />You could just generate charts like you did above for each HP, and then throw in a distribution result for an input population. Though you probably want to put in an output # rather than an input number. That should add some math, but not too much since you can convert it to % instead of actual numbers at the end of each battle population segment. <br /><br />You would also have this interesting albeit morbid statistic for what overall % of the population died before it made it to the target number of battles.<br /><br />One thing that isn't probably taken into account with that kind of calculation is one other question. In a world where presumably you might have a reasonable idea you have 1hp, and presuming you don't want to die, would not those with under 5hp have a greater tendency to either not be put into military service? <br /><br />There is limited production of weapons and armor, you probably only want to give it, and the 'extensive' training to those with actual potential to use it. Once they proved they weren't going to be 5HPers they probably would get shoved off as house servants at the best...<br /><br />Of course, perhaps the only way to find out is to take 1hp worth of damage at least, and those NPCs would be taken out of the equation anyhow.<br /><br />Oddbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12091924105175846386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-6062228592823552892014-07-07T16:58:47.133-06:002014-07-07T16:58:47.133-06:00Oh, I am most definitely thinking of Bashi-bazouks...Oh, I am most definitely thinking of Bashi-bazouks and Janisaries.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-70044529870796148992014-07-07T16:53:14.707-06:002014-07-07T16:53:14.707-06:00You might be able to tie that into the hex generat...You might be able to tie that into the hex generator too.<br /><br />More populated areas having larger forces, and more soldiers defying the odds to make it to the 5 year mark.<br /><br />I wonder if you could 'simulate' up to that point in time based off of the age of entry into a military career and expected service 'retirement' age.<br /><br />This would probably start running the calculations a bit long, but you could run them once for each population segment and only simulate each year as you step through it. Save the results in a database...<br /><br />Well, anyhow, that starts to get pretty large pretty fast, but with the right tech you could have some fun. Testing and building simulations of military sizes and strengths based on DnD hp.<br /><br />I wonder what kinds of armies you'd end up if you stepped up or down the hit die.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Oddbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12091924105175846386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-80983312970586163432014-07-07T16:36:38.302-06:002014-07-07T16:36:38.302-06:00Oddbit,
So you build an algorithm that determines...Oddbit,<br /><br />So you build an algorithm that determines how 'tough' the group of humanoids randomly attacking the party is. The algorithm determines how many decade-trained soldier groups there are in a tribe of 300, how many 5-years, 3-years and 1-years there are. Then we assign a tactical value to each, so that IF we're three miles from the humanoid village, we'll be attacked by soldiers of this toughness, if we surprise the guards surrounding the pit mine outside the village we'll encounter this toughness and if we sneak in, late at night, and surprise a humanoid family in its hut we'll encounter this level of toughness.<br /><br />Thank you Oddbit.<br /><br />Get it, gentlemen? It isn't an answer until it starts telling you how to rebuild your freaking campaign! Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-8752345527944801462014-07-07T16:27:00.176-06:002014-07-07T16:27:00.176-06:00The fact that everyone has already realized that a...The fact that everyone has already realized that a 'story' has to be invented to reconcile this utterly stupid 1 hit point shit, I take it that the REAL problem is that people would rather retain the weak-ass hit points for monsters rather than simply adapt the system. Well, I'm not interested in duct taping that puppy.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-55395865560775343142014-07-07T16:25:06.383-06:002014-07-07T16:25:06.383-06:00To answer your second point, James (without the C)...To answer your second point, James (without the C),<br /><br />I specifically called them 'humanoids' so it wouldn't be applying to any race as a whole.<br /><br />I expected the reader to extrapolate a '4th round' and a '5th round' from the existing data, recognizing that the numbers only get drastically worse for low hit point creatures. How many combats only go 3 rounds?<br /><br />It occurs to me that someone is going to say, "You're assuming the creatures have full hit points."<br /><br />Will someone please point to the page and paragraph in any AD&D book where it says, "When the party encounters monsters, please assume the monsters with few hit points are injured." Furthermore, if this is the explanation for why there are some monsters with fewer hit points, doesn't this mean that EVERY group of more than 5 monsters are limping back from combat? Seems to me, I'm not making an assumption: I'm avoiding one. I've decided that every hit point roll is the monsters MAXIMUM hit points, since there is no rule, footnote, comment or remote suggestion in any book that this is what is meant. I see "1 HD." I see "1-8 hit points per die." Where's the qualifier? I don't see one.<br /><br />Was there a memo?Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-50847434452566164792014-07-07T16:18:28.413-06:002014-07-07T16:18:28.413-06:00James without the C,
I'll let you off the hoo...James without the C,<br /><br />I'll let you off the hook, but if you look at my numbers, I'm not making any assumptions. I am making conclusions based on the game results, but I have not calculated any numbers on the basis of assumptions I've made. Therefore, we cannot be making "different" assumptions. You're making them. I am not.<br /><br />James C.,<br /><br />Before their FIRST encounter, the party is ALWAYS at full hit points. The monsters don't get this consideration? Why?<br /><br />When you went out with your fellow soldiers, were a lot of you at 12% and 25% efficiency?<br /><br />Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-44509907021137571162014-07-07T16:17:01.264-06:002014-07-07T16:17:01.264-06:00Here's a thought.
What if you used a computeri...Here's a thought.<br />What if you used a computerized background generator for each random opponent to generate their experience grade and thus effective potential hit points?<br /><br />Say you want a random group of 20 combatants with 2-5 battles experience. Then you could generate hp based on the odds obtained above for their hp ranges.<br /><br />Step 1: determining actual battles within set range.<br />Step 2: Calculate odds based on battle simulation.<br />Step 3: roll against % for HP target range.<br />Step 4: have 20 logically generated warriors with a decided experience level.<br /><br />Potentially you could even determine levels of the supposed NPCs. Or inversely you could establish levels to get battle's survived ratios.<br /><br />Instead of calculating HP based on 1d8, calculate hp based on experience. It still gives you that .5% chance the opponent has 1 hp. (which is about what I can calculate from that first chart.)Oddbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12091924105175846386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-60232190041260695252014-07-07T16:00:26.207-06:002014-07-07T16:00:26.207-06:00I for one like this idea, and have been doing some...I for one like this idea, and have been doing something similar for a few months now. Strong or well prepared enemies have maximum hitpoints<br /><br />There really is no good reason for random amounts of hit-points for monsters. It was a game mechanic that served to allow impartial information parity 30 years ago. Modern versions of D&D use fixed HP for monsters, and there are house rules for doing the same for player characters.<br /><br />A patrol of orcs, or an orcish ambush is likely to be made up of the fittest and most survivable orcs around. On the flip side, a camp or a freshly conscripted army is going to have some people with 1 HP. If the party ambushes a group returning from a battlefield they should be in bad condition.<br /><br />Honestly, your thoughts here make a shit ton of sense. Thanks for figuring out why I have been doing what I've been doing.<br /><br />I'll offer a dissenting opinion so that I don't look like I'm kissing too much ass. I have mentioned before using HP to represent general levels of stress and wellness. In that sort of system you may have troops on patrol that aren't up to expectations. They will get killed because they cracked under pressure. This still means a group of ambushing veteran orcs has every right to have full hit points though.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17939309042792833333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-21677461151330809762014-07-07T15:53:41.601-06:002014-07-07T15:53:41.601-06:00Yes, you are correct. Irrespective of what you rol...Yes, you are correct. Irrespective of what you rolled to get there, Of 600 creatures with 5 hitpoints, only 100 will survive 3 battles (within a certain amount of margin of error, but still). I think our difference of opinion comes from what assumptions you want to make. You want to assume the enemies encountered by PCs are among the hardiest of their kind. If that is your goal, I like your system quite a lot.<br /><br />I dislike your idea as it applies to a race as a whole, however, precisely for the reason you state: the survival numbers after 3 battles. That is why I asked you what casualty rate you think is appropriate for a 3 round battle, as that is a question you can answer better than I, and the answer would be critical to any real assessment.<br /><br />Anyway, I am over-explaining. As I tend to, so I will stop. Thank you for the interesting idea, I never thought of HD in this manner and you have given me some interesting ideas. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3871409676946408069.post-21619785530392214392014-07-07T15:30:57.676-06:002014-07-07T15:30:57.676-06:00If you'd note, I admitted my using "30% c...If you'd note, I admitted my using "30% casualty rate" was an assumption and an example, and not offered as proof of anything. I do not think 7 or 8 hitpoints per HD is "unreasonable" or "unfair," but was basing my math on the following premises:<br /><br />1. The designers thought this creature should have 1-8 hitpoints.<br />2. In most things, distributions are not even but on a bell curve. <br /><br />Prejudice? I don't play AD&D, so I have no dog in this race. <br /><br />I told you my opinion: your system will skew HD high, well above average. That is all. If that is an acceptable, or the desired, outcome, I see no reason it would break the game. <br /><br />I didn't "make up" any numbers though, and I resent that accusation. <br /><br />But pointing to the army base 20 blocks from you? Really? I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as you in regards to history, but I thought most armies in the era D&D assumes, as well as the one you play in, where made of peasants who were conscripted, unarmored, malnourished and barely trained? Apples and oranges, no?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com